Compilation: Capped Dungeons, pro and contra arguments

[Chinook]

Thanks for taking the time to do this Rinsui.

I had some time on my lunch time, so long wall of text incoming.


Adding a pro-cap argument:

Adding a scaling cap allows the r30 dungeon to become a new, simple, rewarding and fun alternative way to get sp with your friends, even though they are lower or higher in ranks than you.


Another pro-cap argument:

Since the parties will be formed of only 4 people, X and Y jobs will soon be identified as the most effective ones by the community. Some players will have a hard time finding groups (who doesn’t know people who got frustrated and quit because they picked up dragoon and dark knight when FFXI launched?).

Having a cap of r30 means that people can use their sub-jobs (if their job isn’t effective for the content) or rank one up on in few days (even if they’re casuals).


Pro-cap counterargument (even tho I’m pro-cap) of the following argument:

- With capped content, low level equipment remains valuable. Crafters are happy because there's a steady demand for low level gear, and even low level NM drops will retain their epicness forever.

You can equip any gear in FFXIV and will scale (they said they’d look that, they already made new gear more exclusive, but we don’t know about hard ranks yet and it might never come). So it prolly won’t create a significant demand for mid-rank gear in the current system.

However, that counter argument also makes up a positive point for cap versus the FFXI cap that we know since FFXI gear system required you to have multiple sets of them for capped stuff, which was annoying to many).

Also, they can still make valuable r30 gear that can be turned into r40 and r50 drop in this dungeon if it’s capped. Otherwise, the gear will lose all its value if the dungeon can be rushed ...

... which links to the following pro argument:

Keeping the dungeon challenging means that SE can put long-term rewards like currency and that kind of stuff in it to encourage re-playability and make the content last longer (and it means 50% of the available content atm).


It is also linked to the following counterargument of:

- With capped content, you'd be able to store low level equipment for each job you intend to enter the dungeon with. Given the limited storage space we have, that's a definite no-go.

See comments above. For the sake of copy-pasting help:

You can equip any gear in FFXIV and will scale/adjust.


Counterargument of:

- People should be free to decide on the degree of challenge of a dungeon.

This argument works on both sides ... We’re actually not free to decide the degree of the challenge in an uncapped dungeon either ... Everything will be easy if your main and favorite class is r50 (like the majority of the current active players).

There are even some non-hardcore people who already have all their classes above 30 (r40 is the 50% mark toward r50, so r30 must be like 20%, I can’t personally check).


Counterargument for:

- Once most players reach higher levels, there will be noone left to do the low level dungeons with. So it should be possible to solo those dungeons with a high level job.

I actually see this argument against cap as a procap argument .Making the dungeon re-playable, with a cap allowing and rewarding everyone from r25 to r50 to go in, counters this.

A cap will actually create what’s talked about in this argument. It will make it boring for the r50, and unless the drops are 100%, they won’t go in 10x to help the new players out.



For people who will say “who cares about a r30 dungeon, go do the r50 if you want a challenge”, the r50 dungeon will suffer too once the rank cap of r50 is increased (which is confirmed). And some people want to enjoy all the content as it’s intended to be.


I wish we could build tables in these forums to put arguments side by side. Arguments and counterarguments of both sides will eventually appear in both sections.


Basically, the main issue opposing both sides, which we’ll never solve because it’s kind of philosophical, is the following:

Human nature makes people ALWAYS choose the easiest and most effective path.

Procap people believe in this, and pro-uncap people do not.


Challenge and re-playability is just a matter of personal taste I guess.

[Krausus]

This argument works on both sides ... We’re actually not free to decide the degree of the challenge in an uncapped dungeon either ... Everything will be easy if your main and favorite class is r50 (like the majority of the current active players).

Yes you are, all you need to do is decide not to take a rank 50 in there with you

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Yes you are, all you need to do is decide not to take a rank 50 in there with you

that is true, but at some point everyone will have classes over 30 and a new player coming in trying to actually get a party of 4 30s will have a really hard time.
1- because of the lack of available people at rank 30,
2- because the available people also have to have a complementing class
3-there will be more people just wanting to have an easy run and have a 50 tag along since they probably already seen the place.

[Krausus]

that is true, but at some point everyone will have classes over 30 and a new player coming in trying to actually get a party of 4 30s will have a really hard time.
1- because of the lack of available people at rank 30,
2- because the available people also have to have a complementing class
3-there will be more people just wanting to have an easy run and have a 50 tag along since they probably already seen the place.

but there is plenty of time for that, you already know my biggest worry is taking time away from content development, and i have already stated that adding a cap feature when more time permits is fine with me, but as fragile as FFXIV is at this moment the devs IMO need to focus on adding unique content and get this game ready for PS3 release, not finding ways to make the same content more repeatable, I mean where have you been for the last 9 months I know I have been here repeating everything, I'm tired of repeating everything.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

but there is plenty of time for that, you already know my biggest worry is taking time away from content development, and i have already stated that adding a cap feature when more time permits is fine with me, but as fragile as FFXIV is at this moment the devs IMO need to focus on adding unique content and get this game ready for PS3 release, not finding ways to make the same content more repeatable, I mean where have you been for the last 9 months I know I have been here repeating everything, I'm tired of repeating everything.

Your point is valid and ill paste what I said earlier in another thread:

I'll stress the fact that no cap on those (and upcoming) dungeons just make them shallow and nothing can be built on it. If that is their intent, then I don't care for the to stay uncapped if they are not rewarding any type of lasting gears/fame/rep/items/currency.

That said, if they are just shallow content for SP, not rewarding any type of lasting gears/fame/rep/items/currency, I really hope for them to make more content that have some depths to them and that things like story missions and fights are capped and must be completed under cap in order to progress.

So both type of content can be viable, as long as one does not set a predecedent and norm for any upcoming content.

but to be fair, it would be lame if they were just another mean to SP... they could just fix the leves, behest and make party grind viable to serve that end and give dungeons a BCNM feel but with a dungeon concept to them.

[Jinko]

I am pro capped, I have nothing more to add.

These forums really do need the function to make polls, come on Community Reps :P

[Rentahamster]

Since the counterarguments are "none so far", I guess I'll put some in.

- It should be up to the players whether they want to be being helped through a dungeon by appropriate-leveled friends, or cheated through it by high level players.
Counter argument: That's fine if they want to be cheated through the dungeon by high level players, but if they do so, they should not be eligible to obtain good items and loot from the dungeon. This will maintain the proper risk vs. reward ratio and help to keep game balance.



- People would have to re-do all their macros. Which is not just a hassle, but impossible for players with several jobs at max level, because there simply is no macro space left to accomodate all the gearswaps, ability settings and different battle-macros.
Counter argument: A minor inconvenience, on par with every other inconvenience regarding macros in this game. While it's true that we don't need yet another reason to redo our macro bars, the difference between a rank 25 character and a rank 50 character is only 15 abilities that are going to become disabled. Besides, improvements to the macro system and skill assignment system will be implemented in the future as well, so the issue will be less important as time goes on.


- Capping dungeons removes any sense of character progression. As a LV 50, you *should* be able to blast through a LV 30 dungeon, otherwise your LV 50 would be meaningless.
Counterargument: Like the BCNMs of FF11, raid dungeons are specifically designed for a particular rank range, and should therefore be completed as designed, especially if there are good item rewards on the line. You rank 50 character does not become meaningless because there is still the rank 50 dungeon that is available to run as well. Additionally, if your only desire is to blast through low rank fluff, then you can always do that on the overworld, which will naturally always be uncapped by design.

[Krausus]

Your point is valid and ill paste what I said earlier in another thread:



but to be fair, it would be lame if they were just another mean to SP... they could just fix the leves, behest and make party grind viable to serve that end and give dungeons a BCNM feel but with a dungeon concept to them.

I honestly think that they will only be good for gear, I doubt their focus will be for SP but of course that's all speculation. But again its a mid rank dungeon. A majority of people will not spend much time there so whats the point of spending all those resources and time to limit its playability? Who cares if a rank 50 blows through there its mid rank gear that will be replaced rather quickly. This dungeon is not going to mean anything its a distraction at best I would rather they add in more dungeons one for every 5 ranks preferably and if they want to add in a cap system but still focus on content then that is fine with me, its not going to effect me anyways.

PS: why would no cap make them shallow, look at all the other MMOs out there that have no cap dungeons, it usually takes them years before they become obsolete, and really who cares by that time they have already added in so much other content it doesn't matter. If SE wants to ensure that the dungeons are always used then they should do something like add in progression quest lines, which they may be doing with the quest that leads up to entering the dungeon, who knows maybe after completing said quest the quest line will continue.

[Rentahamster]

PS: why would no cap make them shallow, look at all the other MMOs out there that have no cap dungeons, it usually takes them years before they become obsolete,

Not sure why so many people are in an uproar concerning this, most games do not level cap dungeons. If people want to have high levels run them through then so be it, it does not effect you in any way whatsoever. People need to get over themselves and stop trying to force their game play style on others.

I covered that point right here:

Yes. Important point to take away here is that in WoW, there is essentially a pseudo-level cap since most of the raid loot is bound to your character, so you have to play as that character to acquire the items anyway.

In FF14, since a single character can be multiple classes, using your high rank class to easily farm items for your lower ranked class would ruin game balance.

This is why the need for level caps in games like FF11 and FF14 is much more necessary than in other MMOs where you can't be every job on one character.

[VydarrTyr]

Basically, the main issue opposing both sides, which we’ll never solve because it’s kind of philosophical, is the following:

Human nature makes people ALWAYS choose the easiest and most effective path.

Procap people believe in this, and pro-uncap people do not.

Your opinion on level caps disproves your hypothesis. If people always choose the easiest and most effective path, you would not be arguing for level caps. You'd be arguing against them.

The fact that you are arguing for level caps means that you are not choosing the easiest and most effective path. You're choosing a more difficult path.