Compilation: Capped Dungeons, pro and contra arguments

[ckb]

up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start

That makes the game too easy! Just like uncapped dungeons would!

What you didn't have friends as a kid? up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Select, Start

[Krausus]

i mean you can put rewards like items that can be upgraded to be good at multi levels, currency of some form to buy items for multiple level ranges, or even just having items that are really good for specific things, across many levels, or considering materia is coming, items that can become better materia than others in that level range.
but this would only make sense if you couldnt farm it easily.

but until we get confirmation that they are in fact going to add in upgradeable gear like you suggest or tokens/currency then I'm not sure this should be included, Materia sure we know that is being added.

[Rinsui]

Pro: Uncapped content will create a predecedent and it will be expected for future content that they are uncapped as well, alienating all depths in content, having devs design shallow/favor of the patch content. Allowing for only vertical progression like in WoW (making only new content relevant and desirable, even new players will just skip the old content) instead of horizontal character progression which makes new and old content relevant for new and old players.

Hmm. I thought I had that one covered already with

- If you uncap low level dungeons, high level players will simply rush through it; which basically means that you are wasting the lasting potential of a dungeon (which could be challenging forever with caps). Counterargument: None so far

Please accept that I have to be a little more concise, or nobody will read it ^^/

[Perrin_Aybarra]

You should also add there are people who don't have jobs below 25-30 anymore. If they want that challenge then they are screwed. You should not be forced to level another character just to get what you want (the challenge not the gear) out of a dungeon.

Yes and also that not everyone WANTS to level another class so that forcing them to level another class to experience the challenge is ripping them from the freedom to play the class they enjoy.

[Rinsui]

引用元：Rinsui
- With capped content, low level equipment remains valuable. Crafters are happy because there's a steady demand for low level gear, and even low level NM drops will retain their epicness forever. Counterargument: None so far
[/I]
Forever? I'm sorry, but it will retain it epicness until it gets replaced with better gear at r50 (or any other better higher rank equip), the only reason people would keep it probably only for nostalgia, most would tossed them as soon as there are replacements because it is eating storage space.

Also before anyone bringing up leaping boots and empress hairpin etc, please leave because you are on the wrong game.




引用元：Rinsui
- If you uncap low level dungeons, high level players will simply rush through it; which basically means that you are wasting the lasting potential of a dungeon (which could be challenging forever with caps).[/I]
[/I]
The only potential low level dungeons has is only until they can enter next stage of dungeons, there is no lasting potential on low level dungeon, people will rank up and never go back to do that say low level dungeon (unless they need to help friends). There are of course solutions to keep people comin back, Capping level isn't one of'em.

Well. People *DID* keep their NM LV 30 gear in FFXI, because they knew they could use it for, e.g., Promyvions (LV 30 capped content). So if there is LV capped content, your arguments become invalid. Sorry; that's not my personal opinion, but your argumentation is on the assumption that no LV-capped content exists in the first place - which is exactly what we are arguing about (your argumentation is "circular", see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question).

[Rinsui]

You should also add there are people who don't have jobs below 25-30 anymore. If they want that challenge then they are screwed. You should not be forced to level another character just to get what you want (the challenge not the gear) out of a dungeon.

Noted, added as a counter argument.

i mean you can put rewards like items that can be upgraded to be good at multi levels, currency of some form to buy items for multiple level ranges, or even just having items that are really good for specific things, across many levels, or considering materia is coming, items that can become better materia than others in that level range.
but this would only make sense if you couldnt farm it easily.

Noted, added as the final pro argument (so far).

[Chardrizard]

Well. People *DID* keep their NM LV 30 gear in FFXI, because they knew they could use it for, e.g., Promyvions (LV 30 capped content). So if there is LV capped content, your arguments become invalid. Sorry; that's not my personal opinion, but your argumentation is on the assumption that no LV-capped content exists in the first place - which is exactly what we are arguing about (your argumentation is "circular", see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question).

the only reason they kept it is because you would be naked otherwise, but since the day FFXI implemented scaling down equipment system, only minority that wants perfection keep lowranks equips.

fortunately in FFXIV , u can equip everything of any rank with minor setback, no reason to keep lowranks equips.

[Rinsui]

the only reason they kept it is because you would be naked otherwise, but since the day FFXI implemented scaling down equipment system, only minority that wants perfection keep lowranks equips.

fortunately in FFXIV , u can equip everything of any rank with minor setback, no reason to keep lowranks equips.

Post adjusted. Please note that this somewhat devaluates the "low level NM gear remains valuable" pro argument as well.

[Chinook]

Thanks for taking the time to do this Rinsui.

I had some time on my lunch time, so long wall of text incoming.


Adding a pro-cap argument:

Adding a scaling cap allows the r30 dungeon to become a new, simple, rewarding and fun alternative way to get sp with your friends, even though they are lower or higher in ranks than you.


Another pro-cap argument:

Since the parties will be formed of only 4 people, X and Y jobs will soon be identified as the most effective ones by the community. Some players will have a hard time finding groups (who doesn’t know people who got frustrated and quit because they picked up dragoon and dark knight when FFXI launched?).

Having a cap of r30 means that people can use their sub-jobs (if their job isn’t effective for the content) or rank one up on in few days (even if they’re casuals).


Pro-cap counterargument (even tho I’m pro-cap) of the following argument:

- With capped content, low level equipment remains valuable. Crafters are happy because there's a steady demand for low level gear, and even low level NM drops will retain their epicness forever.

You can equip any gear in FFXIV and will scale (they said they’d look that, they already made new gear more exclusive, but we don’t know about hard ranks yet and it might never come). So it prolly won’t create a significant demand for mid-rank gear in the current system.

However, that counter argument also makes up a positive point for cap versus the FFXI cap that we know since FFXI gear system required you to have multiple sets of them for capped stuff, which was annoying to many).

Also, they can still make valuable r30 gear that can be turned into r40 and r50 drop in this dungeon if it’s capped. Otherwise, the gear will lose all its value if the dungeon can be rushed ...

... which links to the following pro argument:

Keeping the dungeon challenging means that SE can put long-term rewards like currency and that kind of stuff in it to encourage re-playability and make the content last longer (and it means 50% of the available content atm).


It is also linked to the following counterargument of:

- With capped content, you'd be able to store low level equipment for each job you intend to enter the dungeon with. Given the limited storage space we have, that's a definite no-go.

See comments above. For the sake of copy-pasting help:

You can equip any gear in FFXIV and will scale/adjust.


Counterargument of:

- People should be free to decide on the degree of challenge of a dungeon.

This argument works on both sides ... We’re actually not free to decide the degree of the challenge in an uncapped dungeon either ... Everything will be easy if your main and favorite class is r50 (like the majority of the current active players).

There are even some non-hardcore people who already have all their classes above 30 (r40 is the 50% mark toward r50, so r30 must be like 20%, I can’t personally check).


Counterargument for:

- Once most players reach higher levels, there will be noone left to do the low level dungeons with. So it should be possible to solo those dungeons with a high level job.

I actually see this argument against cap as a procap argument .Making the dungeon re-playable, with a cap allowing and rewarding everyone from r25 to r50 to go in, counters this.

A cap will actually create what’s talked about in this argument. It will make it boring for the r50, and unless the drops are 100%, they won’t go in 10x to help the new players out.



For people who will say “who cares about a r30 dungeon, go do the r50 if you want a challenge”, the r50 dungeon will suffer too once the rank cap of r50 is increased (which is confirmed). And some people want to enjoy all the content as it’s intended to be.


I wish we could build tables in these forums to put arguments side by side. Arguments and counterarguments of both sides will eventually appear in both sections.


Basically, the main issue opposing both sides, which we’ll never solve because it’s kind of philosophical, is the following:

Human nature makes people ALWAYS choose the easiest and most effective path.

Procap people believe in this, and pro-uncap people do not.


Challenge and re-playability is just a matter of personal taste I guess.

[Richard]

chin bringing the guns. that's my boy.