This game is play to win.

[HoneyBiscuit]

I do not mean to stop the complaints. Complaints are good. Complaints outline issues people have with the game. I mean to stop the ridiculous overreaction. Not getting the extra retainers will not hurt your ability to play the game in the slightest. Just like people with far more time to play than you doesn't affect your ability to enjoy the game either. Which is the point of the stupid "play to win" OP.

Nobody complains about people who can make 8 characters per server as opposed to 1. Shouldn't that be pay to win? People with multiple accounts should be considered pay to win too right? People have extra character slots and extra accounts for things like more retainers. This should be viewed as a far cheaper, more easily managed, and less time consuming alternative to what people already do.

And here's hoping the glamour prisms and new recipes boost the economy a bit huh?

[Sunarie]

Nobody complains about people who can make 8 characters per server as opposed to 1. Shouldn't that be pay to win? People with multiple accounts should be considered pay to win too right? People have extra character slots and extra accounts for things like more retainers.

Just on a personal note.. I think the "pay more for more characters" doesn't get complained about because it's seen as a discount and not something they're paying extra to get. The standard MMO fee gives you all the character slots, the reduced fee gives you one. I have definitely seen people complaining about multi-boxing (multiple accounts) being unfair.

All that being said, I don't think retainers are a "pay to win" mechanic, but I also do not approve of them being in there. The whole reason I prefer sub based games is to get access to everything (save for cosmetic stuff generally) with one fee. So that one person who's paying more doesn't get a step up regarding actual in game stuff. So far, the retainer doesn't do that.. but they easily could if SE decides to try and "promote" them.. by say, making the ventures stuff apply to those retainers too, so people who have paid can maybe get higher quality, or rare materials much quicker than those who have not. There is stuff I'm okay with being in a cash shop for a sub based game. Costumes, transfers, name changes, fantasia potions, even mounts or pets I don't truly have a problem with.. assuming the mounts are the same speed people have in game and all.

People having more time than me.. well. I don't care about that bit. They put in the work, they got the thing, they deserve it. If I put in the same amount of work, I can get the thing too.

[HoneyBiscuit]

Snip and stuff

I'm not saying you can't disagree with the additional retainers. Hell I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm saying people need to stop calling it pay 2 win. It's not. People constantly spout "pay to win" but I don't think it means what they think it means. I remember someone saying pay to win in a thread about fantasia. I mean we all know lalafell give maximum dps so nobody should get fantasia potions.

The distinction is whether or not the optional services gate your progress in the game. Like needing to use a cash shop for gear strong enough to clear end game dungeons. It's so obvious what's wrong with that.

I will concede this thread if someone can provide irrefutable evidence that extra retainers are in fact, required to access all areas of content this game has to offer. I will agree this game is pay 2 win, unsub, and send that poster noodz(I'm male so make sure you know what you're getting into)

these forums are all about complaining. seriously, I don't even know why I check out the forums anymore. now, we're complaining about people complaining. so i'm going to complain about you complaining about other people complaining. take that!

I'm going to complain about your complaint of me complaining in a complaint thread about the complaints of others. Complain.

Complaints are good. If no one complained SE will think everyone is happy. Complaints have gotten them to make changes in game already. Nobody should stop complaining. Just don't forget to give SE your love too.

I've no issue with the complaints of others. I've issue with the giant overreaction to the so called "pay2win" retainers.

[Orophin]

There is a HUGE difference between pay2win and pay4convenience. Pay2win is what you see when you get cash shops that offer gear/weapons/buffs that A) can't be found in-game by any other means, and B) are so OP compared to in-game gear/buffs/weapons that they become almost mandatory for you to be effective in game against other people using them.

It's semantics really. If Ventures can be undertaken on all retainers then the guy that can pay $4 more a month than the next guy clearly has an in-game advantage, (regardless of how small it may seem) and this goes against the spirit of subscription games.

[HoneyBiscuit]

It's semantics really.

It's not semantics. It's two different, albeit slightly relative, things. Not accepting the additional cost of the service has no negative impact on your gameplay. It's for convenience. Convenience only has a positive impact on the ones who use it. There is no negative for forgoing an optional convenience.

In a pay2win situation. Not paying for the service has a negative impact on your gameplay. Generally barring you from entering certain dungeons, or granting you gear which is stronger than everyone around you who didn't pay, and is required to progress. This situation provides an advantage to others while simultaneously having a negative impact on those who don't.

Convenience is not required to enjoy the full game, and therefore not pay2win. This is the crap I'm talking about. Except not only do you not understand semantics, you also don't understand the difference between pay2win and optional services.

Someone will always be at an advantage or disadvantage. The way it happens is different. But its occurrence is a constant. Somebody having more time to play than me is an advantage. #playtowin

Any extra income keeps the game going and content coming out without worry of going under. Just food for thought. /shrug

I agree additional income to support this game is a great thing. "Any extra income" I cannot agree with as that does include pay to win. So long as the extra income they are seeking comes from providing, completely optional, convenience related services, that don't hurt anyone paying only their base sub fees, I agree.

[namirei]

"Any extra income" I cannot agree with as that does include pay to win. So long as the extra income they are seeking comes from providing, completely optional, convenience related services, that don't hurt anyone paying only their base sub fees, I agree.

Alright, I worded that wrong since I also don't agree with pay2win, and any extra income should only come for any additional convenience services like you said. I completely agree with you on the overreaction too. As you mentioned before though, if this retainer nonsense counts as pay2win then so does my Legacy account. I could do the exact same thing with eight characters on my server. That puts me at a higher advantage than the person with the basic account and four retainers without even having to pay a dime extra while they have to pay more. That's like a pay2win with a discount lol.

Sooo... I would hardly call the retainer situation game breaking or pay2win. The venture currency needs to be farmed to send the retainers out in the first place and then they need to be leveled to get anything near useful. The majority of the things the retainers can go out and get aren't worth much in game to begin with... at least not on my server. Five animal skins every hour until the retainer reaches level 2 doesn't seem like it will hurt anyone. It's not like they start at level 50 and can stock up on apkallu eggs right away. It's not going to get anyone godly gear either. I can actually see more people using this as a way to get around farming and not having to deal with ten other people all fighting for the same camp. This is especially beneficial for people who will actually use those items instead of just selling them. It won't hurt the people that sell materials either. If a crafter needed something for whatever reason right away and their retainer hadn't returned from their venture, then they can still just buy whatever it is they need.

Also, if someone really needs the extra space that desperately then that's just a convenience for them. I really do see this as a convenience service rather than pay2win like some people seem to see at as.

[HoneyBiscuit]

Alright, I worded that wrong since I also don't agree with pay2win, and any extra income should only come for any additional convenience services like you said.

Yes I understood what you meant. I just wanted to clarify. Since someone already said semantics once, might as well not make it a target.

Things about stuff

It also takes more than 1 token thingy too for certain things as well.

[Lyrinn]

It's semantics really. If Ventures can be undertaken on all retainers then the guy that can pay $4 more a month than the next guy clearly has an in-game advantage, (regardless of how small it may seem) and this goes against the spirit of subscription games.

Except we have no idea how any of this works until the patch actually hits. If there's a cap on the tokens used for ventures, then the person with 4 retainers has no tangible advantage over the person with 2 retainers; the tokens simply get used up faster. The only valid argument I've seen for "pay to advantage" is that you can sell more things, but that's limited to crafters and marketers.

[Sunarie]

I'm not saying you can't disagree with the additional retainers. Hell I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm saying people need to stop calling it pay 2 win. It's not. People constantly spout "pay to win" but I don't think it means what they think it means. I remember someone saying pay to win in a thread about fantasia. I mean we all know lalafell give maximum dps so nobody should get fantasia potions.
snipy

I do agree that it's not pay to win.. whether or not it gives someone an advantage I don't know enough to say yet. I did read something from the interview that the ventures are going to result in some unique items that can't be farmed otherwise. Without knowing how important those items are, or what they're used for.. I can't really say whether having multiple gives anyone any sort of advantage beyond bag space (as much as I don't like the idea of paying for bag space in a sub game).

[HoneyBiscuit]

pay2snip

No question it gives an advantage. But there will always be someone with an advantage over you no matter what. I don't actually have a lot of time to play. I'm way behind on content, and I'm not mad at others for being ahead of me, because they aren't stopping me from playing. Even not paying for retainers gives me a 2-4 dollar advantage over those who do. Someone out there who makes the same amount of money as me one day won't be able to buy that Pepsi. And I'll be home, bathing in it because screw that guy.

The only time this kind of thing becomes a problem is when we aren't paying for an optional service. When instead of paying something for some small leg up, you're paying more than you are already, to continue your progress in the game. Faith in Square seems to be lost on these forums. I have faith we'll not see anything game breaking or pay 2 win in this mmo in a long time if ever.