Diminishing Return on Stats

[Alcyon1]

No one gives a ****. What matters is the value. Value in this case is DPS, because no one really cares what stat is giving them DPS -- they just want results. The marginal benefit in results does, in fact, diminish by stacking a single stat.

Please, don't throw stupid statements like "diminish by stacking a single stat". Spell Speed has an increasing return.

Note: wannabe-smart people try to repeat the fact that crit rating -> crit% is linear and say it has linear returns.

It just depends of the point of view. If your boss gives you twice an increase of 1K, should you consider the second as a "diminushing returns" just because you were earning more ? And about the stats in general, stacking one is usualy not optimal just because they are multiplicating each other. This has nothing to do with diminushing return, the product of 2 linear functions is bilinear, not linear. The optimization problem is quite simple with Lagrange.

[EasymodeX]

While I see how this could be construed as diminishing returns, in another sense, it isn't really.

Yeah. The confusion comes down to context: return on <insert stat> for what?

Return on crit rating for crit% is completely irrelevant. What players want to know is what their return on X stat for DPS is.

Please, don't throw stupid statements like "diminish by stacking a single stat". Spell Speed has an increasing return.

L2r before clicking the reply button.

[Judge_Xero]

2. Spell Speed / Skill Speed has accelerating returns. Technically they're not exponential, like mathetmatically exponential. However, SS actually has accelerating (better than linear) returns. More SS makes SS more valuable. Pretty nuts.

I'm curious if there is more to this that we will see with a level cap raise.

I never checked what the base stats were at level 1 and I don't have a level 1 DoW/DoM to check now but....

If the GCD is 2.5s with say 20 SKP @ Lvl 1 (base stat) and the GDC is 2.5s @ lvl 50 with 341 SKP (base stat) then
either the floor for the GCD is 2.5s and we only started to see the effect @ 341 SKP for it to start going down, or it is relative to
Base Stat + Character Level. (Greater returns the higher level we get)

Has anyone done any low level skill speed testing to see the amount of SKP required to get the GCD to budge a little?

[EasymodeX]

Anecdotal evidence points to low level = doesn't need much SS to get improvement. Which means if the level cap is raised, then it would take more than 10.5ss to get 0.1s off the GCD.

[Alcyon1]

EasymodeX : if you don't change the other stats, X CRIT = Y DPS. This is the definition of LINEAR in terms of DPS.
What you are talking about is X CRIT = ? %DPS. There, it depends of your base crit. Example ?

My base DPS (with 0% crit) is 100.
At 0% crit : I increase my crit by A, giving me 0+X% crit. Conclusion : my DPS increases of X/2 or X/2%.
At, let's say 50% crit (my DPS is 125 now) : I increase my crit by A, giving me 0+X% crit. Conclusion, my DPS increases of X/2 or X/2.5%.

SPS is theorically the best stat for BLM's, but many people like to see big numbers. Some statistical tests showed how full SPS > full crit. Since SPS has an increasing return .....
PS increasing return = better than linear by definition.

[EasymodeX]

EasymodeX : if you don't change the other stats, X CRIT = Y DPS. This is the definition of LINEAR in terms of DPS.

It's not linear in terms of +% DPS, which is what you want to know. You want to know this to compare it against other alternatives, like DTR or SS or w/e.

At, let's say 50% crit (my DPS is 125 now) : I increase my crit by A, giving me 0+X% crit. Conclusion, my DPS increases of X/2 or X/2.5%.

Your DPS increase is [(X/2)/(125)]% which is less than [(X/2)/(100)]%.

The second increase is decayed because you already have 50% base crit.


Edit: Why am I even bothering? You either get it or you don't. This conversation has been repeated a hundred thousand times on MMO mechanics discussions across the internet.

[Alcyon1]

I get it, I just say :
THE INCREASE IS LINEAR IN TERM OF FLAT DPS (DAMAGE PER SECOND) and NOT LINEAR IN TERM OF %DPS. Stop forgetting to say EXACTLY what you're cheking. If your DPs is 250 and after some changes in your stuff, your new DPs is 275, you can say about your DPS "the increase is 10%" or "the increase is 25", both are correct. When you are testing/calculating your DPS, you are just checking the final outsome and not the increase in %. You are taking the highest DPS as the BiS.

[MythToken]

The original post for this thread was asking if there are diminishing returns on stats, the answer is no.


Skill speed/spell speed/accuracy do not apply to this conversation please do not include them. They have also been addressed.

[EasymodeX]

Stop forgetting to say EXACTLY what you're cheking.

There's only one thing to check when you're changing your stats for tradeoffs -- how much your DPS is increasing relative to your prior DPS.

Edit: As a sidenote, there no need to say 'exactly' what you're checking every time, because there's only one thing that's relevant. Furthermore, in the english language and human communication in general, it's up to the reader/audience to interpret the context. No one is willing or should be liable for spelling out an essay every time they refer to something.

When you are testing/calculating your DPS, you are just checking the final outsome and not the increase in %.

When you compare incremental changes in gear or food or changes in rotation you are checking the increase in %.

There's almost no case off the top of my head where you check the absolute value. Edit: Well, there's no case when you're actually trying to have a meaningful discussion. The only case where you use absolute values is when you're comparing to extremely specific configurations. Otherwise, the absolute values lose context and relevance.

It's like talking about total damage on a parse. Useful if you're comparing two players of the same party in the same attempt, but pretty irrelevant for discussion.

The original post for this thread was asking if there are diminishing returns on stats, the answer is no.

Crit has DR for Bards. Sod off.

[MythToken]

It does not/ prove it. Every point of crit increases your Crit by the same amount. That = linear returns.

How that affects your DPS in conjunction with other stats is not what you call "diminishing returns" thats called stat weights and it is very different.