Harsher Penalties for Tanks who Immediately Leave Duty Finder

[sew]

Until now, I've been nice as healer and stuck with the DPS, slowly progressing with aggro all over the place while waiting for a tank, essentially getting dungeons that take 60 minutes instead of 30, even though I could just re-queue and get it pop near-instantly.

However, that's kind of moot anyway. I filed a support ticket, and have been told by their GM staff that abandoning the dungeon at any point, even at the beginning, is completely okay and you will not be punished for it (beyond the 30 minute timer), even if you do it repeatedly and on purpose, as long as you do not state that the reason is to annoy others. When suggesting that they could at least watch out for certain people who do it regularly, I was told that my replies are wasting their and my time. GG.

[sew]

Just to be clear: it shouldn't just be tanks, but anyone who queues and then abandons the second the dungeon loads. For tanks it's just more obvious what's going on, because they don't have to wait 30 minutes for the queue (so queuing and abandoning happens within 10 seconds).

Anyway, it'll also change the behaviour I have in dungeons. Seeing I usually queue with a friend, we both can Vote Abandon, overrule the remaining DPS (who eats a 30 minute requeue timer) and get a 1-minute queue again. Yes, that could be seen as elitist too, and it pains me to do so, but I don't see how I deserve an excessively slow dungeon (missing damage from the missing player, someone handling the monster, not having LB), with aggro running wild when someone else is being a jerk and staff doesn't care.

[Miska]

I can tell you from Experience Sew, just how 'bad' quite a few tanks have had it while leveling, or even doing the story 8-man dungeons.

We are consistently abused by the party. Even if we make no mistakes, a lot of people decide to just make our jobs hard. Yes we understand that other roles don't get instant-queues and I can understand that after being in the duty finder queue for an hour or longer does suck and you want to go-go-go! Or even, if I mark a target as 1 and explain to someone who is new to the dungeon why it dies first, I always get a DPS saying 'why kill that first? Its what we did in my last group' Or to have people who haven't even leveled a Tank, let alone got one to Level 1 telling us how to tank. "Oh I read on the forums that you should only flash" Yea, Flash is useful but not every pull. Only use I found for Flash Spam is in Turn 4 and speed runs, and mind you, joining the Duty Roulette people see how much ilvl 90 gear and relic +1 and they DEMAND a Speed Run or they will drop.

It is people that makes our lives a living misery on this game that forces us tanks to literally Write Names down. I have a sheet of paper here, with over 60 names, when I join a Duty Roulette (which I haven't ran since January) I would compare all names to that list while inspecting gear. If I get 2 DPS for say Copperbell Hard Mode, and they are just hitting ilvl, most likely I will want to drop seeing how its going to take quite some time. But, since I am a good tank, I will continue until the DPS just can't keep up with anything.

And if anyone's name is the same as on my list, guess what? They have given me their harassment and crap before, why should I do it again? For the chance that the guy/girl is from the same server or take a chance and hope its a different server? Why should I subject myself to abuse and harassment from the same people over and over again? Just so you can say "I don't have tank drops because if they drop they get locked out for over an hour! Now I can treat my tanks like trash without fear of them dropping." Yea, a lot of us would stop tanking in DF and DR and just stick to close friends and forget about everyone else. And that will only make your problem worse in the short and long run. And when your queues are hitting 6, even 9 hours, remember what you posted here. And realize that you asked for every tank to stop queuing up because you decided it was a good idea to punish the tanks with relentless harassment, abuse, and an unfair drop-out lock.

[Raestloz]

I can tell you from Experience Sew, just how 'bad' quite a few tanks have had it while leveling, or even doing the story 8-man dungeons.

We are consistently abused by the party. Even if we make no mistakes, a lot of people decide to just make our jobs hard. Yes we understand that other roles don't get instant-queues and I can understand that after being in the duty finder queue for an hour or longer does suck and you want to go-go-go! Or even, if I mark a target as 1 and explain to someone who is new to the dungeon why it dies first, I always get a DPS saying 'why kill that first? Its what we did in my last group' Or to have people who haven't even leveled a Tank, let alone got one to Level 1 telling us how to tank. "Oh I read on the forums that you should only flash" Yea, Flash is useful but not every pull. Only use I found for Flash Spam is in Turn 4 and speed runs, and mind you, joining the Duty Roulette people see how much ilvl 90 gear and relic +1 and they DEMAND a Speed Run or they will drop.

It is people that makes our lives a living misery on this game that forces us tanks to literally Write Names down. I have a sheet of paper here, with over 60 names, when I join a Duty Roulette (which I haven't ran since January) I would compare all names to that list while inspecting gear. If I get 2 DPS for say Copperbell Hard Mode, and they are just hitting ilvl, most likely I will want to drop seeing how its going to take quite some time. But, since I am a good tank, I will continue until the DPS just can't keep up with anything.

And if anyone's name is the same as on my list, guess what? They have given me their harassment and crap before, why should I do it again? For the chance that the guy/girl is from the same server or take a chance and hope its a different server? Why should I subject myself to abuse and harassment from the same people over and over again? Just so you can say "I don't have tank drops because if they drop they get locked out for over an hour! Now I can treat my tanks like trash without fear of them dropping." Yea, a lot of us would stop tanking in DF and DR and just stick to close friends and forget about everyone else. And that will only make your problem worse in the short and long run. And when your queues are hitting 6, even 9 hours, remember what you posted here. And realize that you asked for every tank to stop queuing up because you decided it was a good idea to punish the tanks with relentless harassment, abuse, and an unfair drop-out lock.

After reading all this

I'm kind of glad I play on JP servers

I can't read JP
They can't understand me
and we all just kept silent the whole way
Assuming everybody knows what to do

No abuse received, except that one time my FC queued into CT and the WHOLE RAID screamed "gaijin" and both Valefors at first part had their ass sticked directly at us, but that's a different story

[Maelwys]

No abuse received, except that one time my FC queued into CT and the WHOLE RAID screamed "gaijin" and both Valefors at first part had their ass sticked directly at us, but that's a different story

I hope you responded by /panic emoting and repeatedly chasing the Valefors around the arena yelling "Godzirra!!" in alliance chat!!

CT is funsies

[Jeykama]

I can tell you from Experience Sew, just how 'bad' quite a few tanks have had it while leveling, or even doing the story 8-man dungeons.

Sorry pal, after levelling both tanks to 50 and usually tanking whatever high-level duty roulettes I gotta do to cap out, I've never received any kind of abuse except from my FC mates, which doesn't count. DPS can't handle hitting a target marked #1 and bitches about dying? They can suck it. Healer that AFK-follows since their fairy does it all? I have a thick skin and as long as the group doesn't die from dumbasses like that I keep trucking. If you need to keep a LIST of names, I hate to say it but maybe it's you?

As far as I could, the bad apple DPS/Healer are a minute minority. I've been in some pretty undergeared groups in AK, WP, Haukke, Copperbell, and even Pharos, and while the pace had to be set a bit slower, it was cleared and it was a pleasant experience because they knew how to play and their tank didn't suddenly abandon them.

Tanks, on the other hand. After levelling all the dps classes, I find it ironic that tanks complain about DPS not hitting marked targets because most tanks don't mark. As a healer, even in lv50 dungeons, I can't count the times where I or my fairy have had to tank, because the actual tank didn't know how to hit the flash or overpower button more than once. When I tell them to flash/overpower more than once so my healer doesn't tank? "Don't tell me how to play my class," or worse, ignored. Of course, tanking has more responsibility to keeping the pace of a run, but dungeons really aren't that hard - face mobs away, try not to dance around, use your aoe abilities once in awhile, do your rotation, pop a CD once in awhile.

Anyway, while thick-skinned tanks are apparently a rare breed, they still have no exclusive rights to abuse or be abused by the system. The fact is, using Duty Finder is a privilege for the convenience of everyone using it. Anyway here's how I'd reform the DF system, for all players.
1) Lockouts that increase in duration the more times you drop group within a certain time frame (little for the first few times, large afterwards) averaging over maybe a 4 day period. Dropping if the group isn't filled is fine per normal.
2) Lockout penalty is exacerbated by dropping before the Vote Abandon timer (15 minutes iirc)
3) Vote Kick interval increases the more times it is used in a certain time frame (") except when kicking for Offline.
4) Enough Report Abuse tickets triggers an investigation for cases of abusive AFK or action in order to force vote-kick or abandons
5) Vote kick has a small lockout (5-10 minutes) and prevents the person from rejoining the same party/instance ID
6) Semi-premade groups have 2-3x penalty (dependent on size of group) when initiating Vote Kicks or dropping group.
7) DCing and getting vote kicked for being Offline incurs no penalty for a few times, then incurs penalties similar to dropping group. Timer resets faster though (2 day period).
8) All penalties are additive (if you're votekicked, DCed, dropping group enough, no one really wants you in the system anyway)
9) Queue dodging with In-Progress checked is a 5-minute wait - or simply don't show dungeon progress
10) Token rewards more evenly spread among the bosses with a bias towards the last boss. Token conversion to next inferior token if capped (e.g. 2000/2000 total 0/450 weekly myth would convert gained myth to philosophy without changing weekly cap. 450/450 weekly would also trigger conversion)

Kind of draconian for a "casual" game, but the people playing normally aren't going to be affected anyway except by trolls - who are what this is filtering towards.

[Polorboy]

Sorry pal, after levelling both tanks to 50 and usually tanking whatever high-level duty roulettes I gotta do to cap out, I've never received any kind of abuse except from my FC mates, which doesn't count. DPS can't handle hitting a target marked #1 and bitches about dying? They can suck it. Healer that AFK-follows since their fairy does it all? I have a thick skin and as long as the group doesn't die from dumbasses like that I keep trucking. If you need to keep a LIST of names, I hate to say it but maybe it's you?

As far as I could, the bad apple DPS/Healer are a minute minority. I've been in some pretty undergeared groups in AK, WP, Haukke, Copperbell, and even Pharos, and while the pace had to be set a bit slower, it was cleared and it was a pleasant experience because they knew how to play and their tank didn't suddenly abandon them.

Tanks, on the other hand. After levelling all the dps classes, I find it ironic that tanks complain about DPS not hitting marked targets because most tanks don't mark. As a healer, even in lv50 dungeons, I can't count the times where I or my fairy have had to tank, because the actual tank didn't know how to hit the flash or overpower button more than once. When I tell them to flash/overpower more than once so my healer doesn't tank? "Don't tell me how to play my class," or worse, ignored. Of course, tanking has more responsibility to keeping the pace of a run, but dungeons really aren't that hard - face mobs away, try not to dance around, use your aoe abilities once in awhile, do your rotation, pop a CD once in awhile.

Anyway, while thick-skinned tanks are apparently a rare breed, they still have no exclusive rights to abuse or be abused by the system. The fact is, using Duty Finder is a privilege for the convenience of everyone using it. Anyway here's how I'd reform the DF system, for all players.
1) Lockouts that increase in duration the more times you drop group within a certain time frame (little for the first few times, large afterwards) averaging over maybe a 4 day period. Dropping if the group isn't filled is fine per normal.
2) Lockout penalty is exacerbated by dropping before the Vote Abandon timer (15 minutes iirc)
3) Vote Kick interval increases the more times it is used in a certain time frame (") except when kicking for Offline.
4) Enough Report Abuse tickets triggers an investigation for cases of abusive AFK or action in order to force vote-kick or abandons
5) Vote kick has a small lockout (5-10 minutes) and prevents the person from rejoining the same party/instance ID
6) Semi-premade groups have 2-3x penalty (dependent on size of group) when initiating Vote Kicks or dropping group.
7) DCing and getting vote kicked for being Offline incurs no penalty for a few times, then incurs penalties similar to dropping group. Timer resets faster though (2 day period).
8) All penalties are additive (if you're votekicked, DCed, dropping group enough, no one really wants you in the system anyway)
9) Queue dodging with In-Progress checked is a 5-minute wait - or simply don't show dungeon progress
10) Token rewards more evenly spread among the bosses with a bias towards the last boss. Token conversion to next inferior token if capped (e.g. 2000/2000 total 0/450 weekly myth would convert gained myth to philosophy without changing weekly cap. 450/450 weekly would also trigger conversion)

Kind of draconian for a "casual" game, but the people playing normally aren't going to be affected anyway except by trolls - who are what this is filtering towards.

So, I just started another thread and your solution is significantly better than mine. Though I have similar ideas. I am also leveling all my jobs to 50. I did a dps first because I have always loved the Drg job and that was what I wanted to do. I get a lot of complements for being a competent player and I only once rage quit from a dungeon and it was because the tank started whining about the blm getting more hate than him... think about that one for a while. I couldn't handle the childish actions. I apologized to the party, pretty much said sorry guys but this is ridiculous. I am leaving, I will take the penalty so everyone else can get away from this childish tank. What is really sad is that 9 times out of 10 it is the tank. I played FFXI for 10 years, the only job I played was warrior... I know what it means to be a tank. I had to stop playing because people were getting stupidly picky about gear, weapon, weather or not you used food.... really, food? Yeah, it gives a buff, but the difference between someone who uses it and someone who doesn't is not that huge. Might shave what, one second off the time it takes to kill a boss? Big deal... The same thing is happening here. Some players need to stop being so elite-est and just have fun, it is just a game after all. If it takes you a few minutes longer to complete a dungeon because a player is either new or just not good at it, so what? I have had more fun in "bad" parties with people I can talk to and even joke about dieing so much than those stuck up players who think they are the best thing to happen to this game, or any game they play for that matter. If you can't afford to spend that extra minute in a dungeon because you have to be somewhere, then don't log in and play until you have the time to. </rant>

[Miska]

~snip

Glad you haven't ran into problems. I listen to my groups, and all I hear is "Do it this way, it's what we did last time" People who would come in and go afk right at the door and just say "Oh you guys can go I'll stay here" having DPS who sit there and do nothing but eat the first AoE and Die then complains. I don't think that is just me dude.

And hate to break it to you, but I really do know how to play my class. I have learned by reading and asking my questions from other tanks, and of course my 10 years of experience of being a tank. I have played as a DPS in Instances, and truly, if a tank doesn't mark, I take target off the tank. Not that hard of a concept, but that eludes a good portion of DPS. Even when I mark, I get a BLM or BRD, or SMN, Goon, Monk, that will be hitting Target 3 and will complain when he grabs it off me. How is that MY Fault as you suggest? I dont see how others failing to read, or even take a second to verify targets, as MY Fault? Explain that concept to me again. How is it MY Fault when I get people who complain that I won't speed run just because I am a Relic +1 tank in mostly Coil/Myth gear? How is it MY Fault when queuing up in a low-level roulette and some guy thinks that just because of my gear, I can handle every single mob from the start of the instance to the boss? I am not pulling those mobs, one of the DPS is. How is that my fault? How is it my fault that some BLM will stand in AoE, not cast a spell, and do NOTHING the entire instance my fault? Healers who AFK heal, how is that MY Fault?

Explain that concept.

[Raestloz]

I hope you responded by /panic emoting and repeatedly chasing the Valefors around the arena yelling "Godzirra!!" in alliance chat!!

CT is funsies

I responded by clicking "Yes" at the "Return to the beginning of Labyrinth of the Ancients?" window

[Sibyll]

Tanks, on the other hand. After levelling all the dps classes, I find it ironic that tanks complain about DPS not hitting marked targets because most tanks don't mark.

As a tank, I usually don't mark targets because most of the time no one follows the targets or the party out gears everything so much that it's not worth the time. Even if the DPS are completely split a tank should be cycling through the mobs and doing their single target rotation on the targets they think they are going to lose threat.

As for the perspective of the DPS, it doesn't bother me that most tanks don't mark targets because I pay attention to my aggro relative to the tanks and if I think I might pull I switch to a different target, if necessary.

It's funny that the developers put in several indicators to warn people that they are running the chance of pulling aggro, but people still fail horribly at managing their aggro.