People are bad at this game

[JonBigwood]

The restriction is the minimal gear to pass the dungeon. If you need to overgear the game to complete it, you are terrible.

I think the restriction means you cannot enter below that level because most probably you would make the group wipe (that is, just one player under that ilevel would probably make the fight too difficult to win reasonably.) This does not mean that a group composed with everybody at the minimum ilevel would be expected to win, but rather than a group with only one player at the minimum ilevel, if the rest are not, can be expected to win if played reasonably well enough.

[Viridiana]

I think the restriction means you cannot enter below that level because most probably you would make the group wipe (that is, just one player under that ilevel would probably make the fight too difficult to win reasonably.) This does not mean that a group composed with everybody at the minimum ilevel would be expected to win, but rather than a group with only one player at the minimum ilevel, if the rest are not, can be expected to win if played reasonably well enough.

I'm confident in saying that the dungeons/trials are winnable with the party at the minimum ilvl.

[Simaril]

If I had a magic wand that could change MMO game design I would make better "checks" throughout the game, and more of them. Maybe to unlock Titan HM you should have to avoid plumes, landslides, and bombs for several rounds...

I also think progression is seriously broken when you can access gear long before you need it (ilv70 available to anyone).

[Sibyll]

Considering a vast amount of high level fairly hardcore players agree that the iLvl for Haukke Hard is set too low, I'm disinclined to agree with you.

Do you have a source? I've seen a lot of people complain that the ilvls are too low, but I'm inclined to believe that they just aren't very good, or are doing the encounter the wrong way as with Garuda Extreme.

Just curious, but was the healer helping with DPS? Also, the importance of things like primary stat potions and food becomes more noticeable as the difference between the minimum ilvl requirement of the instance and the average ilvl of the party decreases. It wouldn't surprise me if the developers designed those minimum item level requirements around the idea that their players were utilizing those stat buffs to help meet DPS checks, but frankly I can't see that being the issue if your party was any more than 5 item levels above the minimum given the design of stat potions/food.

I think the restriction means you cannot enter below that level because most probably you would make the group wipe (that is, just one player under that ilevel would probably make the fight too difficult to win reasonably.) This does not mean that a group composed with everybody at the minimum ilevel would be expected to win, but rather than a group with only one player at the minimum ilevel, if the rest are not, can be expected to win if played reasonably well enough.

There are videos of someone soloing some of these instances in gear that I'd say is pretty common amongst most DF groups. Doing the content at the minimum simply requires that everyone knows how to get the most out of their class and that means DPS that know how to save CDs for DPS checks, proper rotations, keeping DoTs and buffs up etc.

[Fendred]

Sybill, they aren't "bad" players. They just don't have the same number of hours many of us core players have to put into the game. That results in a gap in understanding of the encounters. The system as it is right now turns all the core players into ticking time bombs ready to go off because while we are doing dungeons purely for the loot and tomes, they are doing them for the first time. At the same time they are pushing for people of all the different groups to play together with party finder and duty finder and it just doesn't work. If they want the entire community to play together, they need a very different encounter structure that what is being proposed. We are going to be vastly outnumbered by casual players, so it practically guarrantees we will always get paired up with people who are not as well informed and need direction. It quickly descends into a never ending task of explaining to every human being we encounter how to do a fight, and on the hardest fights there is no hope of victory.

[ColorOfSakura]

Snip

My source is people from my FC and other FCs I've chatted with along with a lot of posts in the FFXIV subreddit and tags on tumblr (almost all by players who have at some point run Coil and EX Primals with their main class. I figure if they've been able to handle Coil through Turn 5 and Extreme Primals, saying "This is set way too low" is probably valid at that point) and a couple other MMO forums.

I was the healer, and yes, I was helping with DPS, but I still have to manage my own MP to keep up with heals at the same time. Shroud of Saints and an Elixir only helps so much. I was DPSing where necessary (the twin adds and some on Amandine). Again, the Tank and I had no problems keeping up, but we were also at iLvls 60 and 55 respectively. The DPSes were both barely high enough iLvl to get into the dungeon and they literally couldn't pull the required damage to burn down the adds and the boss fast enough. Honestly, had we managed to down Amandine without much of an incident, I don't think we would have taken Halicarnassus down before Final Allure hit and wiped the party anyways.

[Rein-Yagami]

slash

Lol NO!

I ran Haukke HM yesterday with a Drg iLvl48, Blm iLvl48 and Sch iLvl50. I was running as a Paladin in iLvl70. Guess whut? No issues at all~ one close call on the first boss spawning a super skeleton and one badly placed swirling axe in Ash's fight~

We saved our Lb2 for final add and proceeded to victory.

I love it when people constantly blame the dps for everything~ A tank doesn't dodge dark mist and then eats Fire4 and lightning~ DPS's fault! A healer who chain-spammed Cure2 because CS~ DPS's fault we wiped!

[Kitfox]

It's a fair thing to note that DPSing is not as easy as it seems. The DPS difference between the average DF person and a good DPS in equal gear can easily be up to 30-50%. Obviously if the ilvl of your gear goes down, your basic skill playing your class role has to go up in order to match the DPS checks. Usually this is not the case since low ilvl often corresponds to newer player, therefore less experience and skill in the job. I'm assuming the minimum ilvl for dungeons is just that. It's possible to complete if you perform the best your class can, but the crude reality is that most people don't.

Being able to complete coil doesn't mean that someone is a good player, it's very possible for an average player. Especially when it comes to DPS classes. For an ilvl90 party, it's possible to down T5 with 2-3 average DPS if you have one very good one that makes up for it. Of course you have to deal with mechanics correctly, it's a given. But the base job skill and performance (in this case damage output) doesn't have to be exceptional for everyone. This is NOT the case for a full party of minimum ilvl, same as it wouldn't be for a coil party of i70-80. The number of exceptional players must go up in those cases.

[Dano]

I've seen too many DPSes with full mytho and relic +1s but fail to do proper rotations or didn't even know positional requirements for certain moves. I mean if a person has that much mytho gear then they should have a substantial amount of hours under their belt but yet their performance says otherwise.

Also, training dummies, use them!

[bokchoykn]

It's a fair thing to note that DPSing is not as easy as it seems. The DPS difference between the average DF person and a good DPS in equal gear can easily be up to 30-50%.

I mean if a person has that much mytho gear then they should have a substantial amount of hours under their belt but yet their performance says otherwise.!

Yup!

And the reason is this: Players are very rarely held accountable for their DPS.

The mentality among players is that as long as DPS is staying alive and dealing some degree of damage, this is enough to say that they are adequately doing their job. That's what they think.

You see Titan EX groups in PF all the time that advertise: "i85, 3 Strikes and You're Out!" Yet, somehow doing merely 150 DPS is not a strike?

The truth is: Your chances at beating Titan EX are actually better with high-DPS accident prone players than low-DPS dodging masters. The stars can align for the accident prone players to put together one perfect attempt where 3 of them live. Meanwhile, low-DPS can't miraculously do high DPS and meet the DPS requirements.

But... DDs aren't held accountable for low DPS. Why?

Parsers are the most important tool to a DD's performance. They are a means to learn, improve and gauge their progress. However, only a small percentage of players actually use Parsers.

Parsers are illegal, deterring people from using them. The people who DO use them must be discreet about it. If the party leader does not use a parser, he is never aware of who's doing shit damage and can't make the necessary replacements. Nobody is gonna tell him who's doing shit DPS, because they don't want to get banned.

Even if they weren't illegal, Parsers are often taboo and frowned upon in the community. Many people perceive parsers to be a catalyst for toxic behavior, which isn't completely untrue. They see parse results as unimportant and just a way to flex their epeen. They don't see the value in players having a DPS metric to evaluate themselves and each other.

It's obvious when a Tank isn't generating enough enmity (aggro is everywhere) or when a Healer isn't doing enough healing (people are dying). Without parsers, it's impossible to tell that a DD sucks at their job because nobody knows that he sucks. His responsibility is shared with three other DDs. All you know is that the collective DPS sucks, but nobody knows which single DD sucks. He doesn't even know he sucks. How is he supposed to improve if he doesn't know that he sucks?

That's why there is such a high variance between the quality of DD's in this game. So many DD's doing only 50-70% of their capacity and they have no idea how much more their character is capable of. That's why groups struggle with Turn 4 in i80+ gear, when many others were beating Turn 4 in a mixture of DL+AK. That's why players have to one-tank Twintania or else they won't meet the DPS requirements.

DDs generally suck at this game and they lack both the means and incentive to improve, because Parsers are illegal and people who use them are the exception, not the norm.