Monk should be more rewarding

[Zeronic]

Still think the only problem for now is that greased lighting lasts to short. Dragoons can go on the get go. Monks need to build it up, then lose it due to the boss jumping away (all primals) or doing an ultimate attack you need to hide from. Furthermore im loving monk and although I get your point its still flavour.

[TrivariumOri]

Still think the only problem for now is that greased lighting lasts to short. Dragoons can go on the get go. Monks need to build it up, then lose it due to the boss jumping away (all primals) or doing an ultimate attack you need to hide from. Furthermore im loving monk and although I get your point its still flavour.

Most good monks can time their greased so that it is still active after jumps, this just comes from learning the rotations and mechanics of a fight.

[Zeronic]

Most good monks can time their greased so that it is still active after jumps, this just comes from learning the rotations and mechanics of a fight.

I get that, its possible, but its a harder then a dragoon who can pop right back up. Like I said, a small increase in its time wouldn't hurt.

[Umero]

Still think the only problem for now is that greased lighting lasts to short. Dragoons can go on the get go. Monks need to build it up, then lose it due to the boss jumping away (all primals) or doing an ultimate attack you need to hide from. Furthermore im loving monk and although I get your point its still flavour.

they can easily change it to increase GL duration but the effect won't kick in unless you have to be in the right position similar to what drg has.
I personally think it's just style of play - If you like the class/job you play, you would find the beauty of its imperfection.

[bokchoykn]

I'll weigh in here:

-Greased Lightning is perfect the way it is. Monks @ GL 3 outdamage everybody. Monks @ GL 0-2 don't. This is the intended design of the class. Stop demanding new abilities or tweaks that would allow for Monks to keep GL3 forever. Monks aren't supposed to keep GL forever. Monks are meant to lose GL. Monks are meant to be annoyed when they lose GL. Monks are meant to find creative ways to keep GL whenever mathematically possible. Monks are meant to piss off their teammates when they do dumb things in an effort to keep GL. It's great. I love it.

-At equivalent ability and gear, I find that Monk does more damage than Dragoon. Monk+Bard does roughly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard. Dragoon+Bard+Bard does more damage than Monk+Bard+Bard. This obviously varies depending on the encounter, since the two classes thrive under different conditions.

-Mantra is really fucking good. Not enough mention of it in this thread.

-What's better? DRG or MNK? Who cares? The overall difference is so minimal. Nobody is going to lose their static spot based on the minor differences of the two classes. They both get equally discriminated from dumbass Garuda and Ifrit EX PF groups anyway. Stop demanding Perfect Balance from S-E. Pun intended.

-I'm very satisfied with Monk. I'm glad I chose to gear my Monk over Dragoon and other DPS classes. I feel that Monk has the highest skill-ceiling out of all the DPS classes in the game. I think the class is very rewarding and probably one of the most well-made classes in a game where not all classes are well-made. Be happy, Monks.

[NoctisUmbra]

Monk+Bard does rougly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard.

False. This right here is the problem. If this were true, then there wouldn't be an issue. Then it would be a choice. Am I stacking BRDs? I should bring a DRG. However, currently is a vast majority of content, it takes a DRG and a single BRD to bring more effective DPS to a party. That's the problem.

Mantra is quite nice. Sure. It is ultimately a crutch though, and never really necessary. It's not indispensable as a skill, and although weaker it can be equipped by DRG, BRD, and WAR.

I have been playing MNK since the beginning of this game. Since beta as soon as it became available. I've cleared all content on it. I've optimized it to its peak. I know it like the back of my hand and can play it blindfolded. I am currently geared in full BiS i90 with allagan weapon on it.

I started playing DRG 3-4 weeks ago. It is i86 with a Holy Lance. Had darklight pants on even. I practiced its rotations on a dummy for a while and used it recently in extreme primals since we had a solid BRD player in the party.

My DPS as a MNK was less than my DPS as a DRG + the increase in DPS for the BRD in both Titan and Ifrit Extreme. Despite the gear difference. Same for ADS in Turn 2.

[bokchoykn]

False.

MNK+BRD is roughly equal to DRG+BRD. Sometimes it is more. Sometimes it is less. It might depend on the encounter. It might depend on your testing. It might depend on the skill level of the player(s) you're using to test it. But I will humor you for the sake of this argument and we'll assume that DRG+BRD is very slightly more damage than MNK+BRD, but I won't concede any more than that because I would be lying. The word you used to describe this difference is "problem". Problem is a big word. WAR 2.0 vs PLD 2.0 was a "Problem". It was problematic because there PLD was so much better than WAR in every meaningful way, and WAR was an outright burden to the party. MNK 2.1 vs DRG 2.1 is NOT a "Problem".

Mantra is indeed quite nice. For you to say that it is a crutch and never really necessary, I think this exposes a complete bias in your argument. While Mantra is unnecessary (Of course it is. Otherwise you'd have to bring Monk to everything.), its job is to increase the margins of error for your healers, and help them stabilize an unstable situation by giving your entire party Convalescence. And it does a great job at that. The nature of boss design in this game is that incoming damage and healing difficulty occur in short sequences where 15 second 20% bonus to burst healing is a godsend: The final phase of Turn 4. The entire sequence of adds+bombs in Titan EX. The last few nails of the final Nail phase in Ifrit EX. MT or OT Liquid Hells in Twintania. Mantra is perfect for these situations. For you to consider the slight difference in MNK+BRD vs DRG+BRD damage as a "problem" but dismiss 15 second 20% boost in healing as "just a crutch, unnecessary" is mind-boggling to me.

You also said, "Although weaker, Mantra can be equipped by X, Y and Z". Monk Mantra is QUADRUPLE the potency than the cross-class equivalent. The difference is night and day. But your only description of this difference is that it's "weaker". Not necessarily untrue, but an understatement to support your claim. If your claim that DRG cleanly outclasses MNK held any merit on its own, maybe you wouldn't have to make such exaggerations and understatements to make your point.

• The difference between MNK+BRD vs DRG+BRD: "Problem"
  
• 20% AoE healing boost over 15s every 120s: "Unnecessary crutch"
  
• 20% Mantra vs 5% Mantra: "Weaker."

This kind of post happens in every MMO: "My favorite class is broken and underpowered. The rival class is overpowered. This is a problem."

You clearly exaggerate the advantages of DRG and totally understate the advantages of MNK to further support your claim, and you're not winning anyone over to your Monk pity party.

This is simply a case of:

"Rock is a problem. Paper is fine."
-Scissors

[bokchoykn]

My DPS as a MNK was less than my DPS as a DRG + the increase in DPS for the BRD in both Titan and Ifrit Extreme. Despite the gear difference. Same for ADS in Turn 2.

Here are some additional problems with this testing.

Let's start with Titan. Titan is an extremely high-variance fight when it comes to measuring DPS output, particularly due to Gaols. The fact that we're involving two players here (MNK/DRG + BRD) makes the variance even more prevalent because we're introducing a second player here. How many times are you getting Gaoled. How many times is the Bard getting Gaoled? When are they getting Gaoled? Did the BRD have to sing songs at any point? It is rarely an equal comparison, and you would need many many kills on each combination to draw conclusive evidence. I'm talking 20 kills on each at the very least. Not once on each. That's a joke.

Alternatively, you could take compare your MNK's average DPS and comparing it to the DRG's average DPS and then add 11% of the average DPS of a BRD (to add Disembowel benefit). Unfortunately, that wouldn't work either. You don't know how many times the MNK grouped with another MNK or how many times the BRD grouped with another DRG. Again, variance. On top of that, Disembowel doesn't have 100% uptime on all targets, because you're obviously not gonna use the Chaos Thrust combo on Gaols and Gaolers. It's difficult to accurately measure the value of Disembowl to a BRD's DPS. Without VERY extensive testing, there is no way to draw conclusive evidence from Titan.

Ifrit favors DRG DPS over MNK DPS. DRG+BRD will probably beat MNK+BRD in DPS almost all of the time in this fight. GL3 falls off too often and Monks are worse at killing Nails than Dragoons are. However, Ifrit is not a DPS race. No, the final nails phase is not a DPS race, it is simply a "stability check". If you have a fully functioning party of 8, you will meet the DPS requirement. In this category, Mantra in that final phase in very valuable. DPS advantages in this fight are less important than most other fights. Mantra in this fight is more important than most other fights. Because of that, it's difficult to conclude that DRG+BRD is the better composition than MNK+BRD based on DPS differences alone.

[PenutButter]

-At equivalent ability and gear, I find that Monk does more damage than Dragoon. Monk+Bard does roughly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard. Dragoon+Bard+Bard does more damage than Monk+Bard+Bard. This obviously varies depending on the encounter, since the two classes thrive under different conditions.

DRG + MNK + BRD does more damage than DRG + BRD + BRD and you never need more than 1 BRD. Never. Heck, there are only a few cases where you NEED BRD and that is Turn 2 ADS. That being said, optimally I would go MNK + MNK + DRG or MNK + MNK + MNK, cuz if we're max/mining, everyone knows what they're doing and you should NEVER need ballad in most fights.

Dunno about MNK + BRD doing same damage as DRG + BRD cuz I haven't test it myself and I don't believe what other people say. I don't expect them to believe what I say either but we say it anyways.

[Viridiana]

Heck, there are only a few cases where you NEED BRD and that is Turn 2 ADS.

We aren't even needed then, unless you're doing enrage method and need the MP.