[Suggestion] Do away with holy trinity in the long run

[matic]

tldr;

sounds good on the paper. Any game that has tried that failed hard due to this. (alltough some are moderatly sucessfull in pvp)
The Trinity is like Democracy. It´s a flawed system but it is the best we have.

we don't actually have democracy. we have a republic. your teachers all lied to you.

also this is a ridiculous thread because no developer is going to rework the core mechanics of their game like OP suggests.

[Kitru]

we don't actually have democracy. we have a republic. your teachers all lied to you.

Technically, it's a democratic republic, as opposed to a plutocratic republic (which is what Rome was), which is often classified as a democracy since, by design, everyone has input into governance (ideally) instead of a select few. The fact that it's a republic is simply a recognition that the logistics of a true (Athenian) democracy are completely absurd when dealing with large governments (as opposed to rule of a single city-state).

As to the actual topic, the best argument for why this isn't going to happen is basically what you've said: the game is already too vested in the trinity design that abandoning it simply isn't going to happen. Of course, in every case where I've seen a game try to abandon the trinity, the player base turns it into one or teamwork simply stops existing because everyone tries to do everything. The trinity forces cooperation and keeps things balanced.

[matic]

Technically, it's a democratic republic, as opposed to a plutocratic republic (which is what Rome was), which is often classified as a democracy since, by design, everyone has input into governance (ideally) instead of a select few. The fact that it's a republic is simply a recognition that the logistics of a true (Athenian) democracy are completely absurd when dealing with large governments (as opposed to rule of a single city-state).

right. so....its a republic. every time i post here i remember why i shouldn't.

[Kitru]

right. so....its a republic. every time i post here i remember why i shouldn't.

You're the one that wanted to argue semantics. It's equally appropriate to call the US a democracy as it is to call it a republic because it's both.

[Sinaloa]

we don't actually have democracy. we have a republic. your teachers all lied to you.

also this is a ridiculous thread because no developer is going to rework the core mechanics of their game like OP suggests.

I will consult my politics teacher if you consult your english teacher. I never wrote I am living in a democracy. I actually do but I never wrote it.

[sylin]

Was about to say that...=) Its an important definition Kitru.....A pure democracy would be even worse than the stolen democratic republic we now have.

As for the OP, While I wouldn't mind some hybrid classes, that can fill 2 roles for a time, or something along those lines (ie have necessary cool downs to tank for X amount of time, or being able to switch to healer as a DPS in a certain stance, or just in general have some utility heals that take burden off the heals but long cooldowns whatever.)

The trinity is here to stay, I prefer it.

Never seen such a tank disparity before, the underlying reasons are as mentioned and of course options! Neither tank do I particularly like, healers also only have 2 options, but the difference is exactly what Kitru said, plus as a healer soloing is quite easy typically (im speaking in MMOs generally) and so you have people gravitate towards those roles with less responsibility more options and easier time soloing while waiting for a party.

I think if they add 2 more tank classes, the disparity would lessen.

[HoneyBiscuit]

as a healer soloing is quite easy typically and so you have people gravitate towards those roles with less responsibility more options and easier time soloing while waiting for a party.

I like to pretend the people I'm healing are my little minions that I send forth to do my bidding.

I don't really feel like I have less responsibility healing though. And I personally didn't pick it for easy soloing. I just tried it out and enjoyed playing it. To me healing is satisfying. I feel good doing it. I think the reason people stray from tanks is because it feels less satisfying. Healers get to see their big heal numbers, and watch their minions' health bars fill back up. DPS get to see big damage numbers coupled with fairly active gameplay. It feels pretty good to nail your rotation perfectly, while still dodging aoes and or dealing with boss mechanics. But tanks, they get to stand still and see low damage numbers, and less than flashy mitigation text scroll slowly by. You know you're doing something, but you don't feel it or see it like the healers or DPS. Sure you have to dodge aoes and deal with boss mechanics, but that's not special to tanking. We need something to show up that says, "Good job tank, you blocked the hell out of that guy," or, "Awesome! You're not dead!" maybe, "Nice, you totally positioned that guy in the right spot and DIDN'T wipe your raid!" And they need to pop up with confetti and fireworks. Or I think more reactive tanking abilities might work. Something that says without words, "You blocked that nerd, now show him who's boss and stab him right in the face." Tanking just feels less satisfying to me in this game. It can't help that tanks are built to take hate whether it be from the monsters or the players. People need to be nicer to our tanks. That might help us see more playing.

TL;DR Tanking needs to be more active. Dropping cooldowns to increase some form of your passive mitigation for 30 seconds is boring. Pressing a high damage attack after blocking or parrying, is fun. Anyone else wonder why tanks don't get something like Haymaker?

BLM have Lethargy, a good slow attack and slow movement is useful to kite and survive while waiting for healer/tank to catch up.

Haha thanks, my knowledge of BLM is somewhat limited. Hell I still need to level 5 more times for swiftcast.

[Kitru]

I don't really feel like I have less responsibility healing though. And I personally didn't pick it for easy soloing. I just tried it out and enjoyed playing it. To me healing is satisfying. I feel good doing it.

I heal when I'm feeling lazy because a good healer will have stretches where they don't have to do anything healer-like and neither healer can really spam DPS usefully (Stone II is costly and meh) so the DPS you provide is generally DoT and watch.

I think the reason people stray from tanks is because it feels less satisfying.

The most satisfying thing for me, as a tank, is not seeing big damage numbers. It's seeing big spike boss attacks rendered completely null and void. Get a SCH to adloq you right before a big attack and blow a CD at the right time and you can ignore a Mountain Buster, Incinerate, or even a Death Sentence completely. When you take less damage from a massive burst attack than you would from an auto-attack, it's *incredibly* satisfying, moreso than just seeing a big heal or big damage number because it's such a massive deviation from the norm.

But tanks, they get to stand still and see low damage numbers, and less than flashy mitigation text scroll slowly by.

A WAR is actually going to see some of the largest damage numbers fly up of any class. An Inner Beast crit when you've got Berserk rolling is going to about as hard as a Full Thrust crit; the same is true of a Butcher's Block with Unchained + Berserk. WAR *does* get to see big numbers fly up and, in fact, is liable to see bigger numbers than BRD (since BRD is all about DoTs and bonus off-GCD attacks). PLD can get some pretty big numbers too, when using Spirits Within (potency 300 attack) with FoF active. PLD numbers won't ever be *as* big, but that's because they get more attacks. Tanks just tend to not notice it as much because they're not focused on their damage.

Anyone else wonder why tanks don't get something like Haymaker?

PLD gets Shield Swipe, which is a 210 potency attack for 40 TP that they can use after a successful block (it's also applies Pacification, but that means next to nothing to NPCs). WARs can cross class Haymaker from PGL. Tanks in ARR have access to the riposte style attacks; the problem is that they suck. Shield Swipe is normal enmity and provides only 6.67 more potency per GCD than the RoH combo. Haymaker explicitly does less and the Slow effect doesn't even do much because it suffers from DR and most bosses are immune to it anyways.

What you should really be saying is that the riposte style attacks should be made much beefier, which a lot of tanks actually want, especially PLDs asking for Shield Swipe to do more since it's basically worthless.

[HoneyBiscuit]

*Pronounced love for walls of text*

Edit **So after rereading this post it comes off more like a rant. The short of it is; I, and I'm sure many others, don't find tanks all that fun to play at the lower levels. I believe that's due to the lack of visual feedback the classes have. They don't show you anything to feel really good about until much later into the game. I say this as one of the people who could be tanking but isn't. I am part of the reason why there are so few tanks because I'm not doing it. Playing a tank just isn't as satisfying to me as most of the other classes are. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.**

Okay so, here's where I stand on tanking. I don't have a 50 tank. GLD is 15, and MRD is 35 I think. Haven't touched it since before 2.1. I stopped tanking long after I got bored of doing it. Is tanking more fun at 50? I want to say yes but I obviously don't have that personal experience for a definitive answer.

But I had fun leveling my WHM and MNK from level 1 - 50. Something about them was really fun. I like LNC, ARC, and THM a lot too. They do damage, and good amounts of it. They do damage that I can see. I'm playing a damage dealer, and I see damage. I don't play my gladiator, my marauder, or my arcanist at all. Gladiator and arcanist are 15 for job requirements and I don't plan to go further anytime soon. And I first started wanting to play warrior so that's the only reason why Marauder is up to 35. I don't like arcanist so much because I can't see my damage like I do the other damage dealers. It's there and it's certainly good damage. But it's somewhat dissatisfying. DoT's are all rolled together into one barely visible number every 3 seconds, and my carbuncle's damage isn't any easier to see. So what DO I see? Ruin. Oh boy.

That's how I feel about the tanks. I'm sure that's how many feel about the tanks. Truth is low levels are the most important because they need to get you into playing that class and the game as a whole. That drive to keep leveling is just not there for me in tanking classes or the arcanist. You can't see what tanks do at the lower levels. At those lower levels it's like playing a DPS class that does crap DPS(okay maybe not MRD). You've got tanking cooldowns but the low level content is so easy you can get to 50 without using them once, or at least to level 40. Hell you don't even really start to need a tank until around level 25. I mean come on, the healer can fricken tank with just cure aggro, I've done it in Toto Rak and Titan normal mode. Good the tank class I chose is actually not needed and frankly slowing my group down, another LNC could easily take my place and nobody would really even care.

I'm sure mitigating mountain buster or death sentence is pretty frikken sweet to see. Maybe it's the most satisfying feeling in the world watching king behemoths meteor drop right on top of you while you /laugh and still be standing when the dust clears. Where is the satisfaction levels 1-49 then? My issue with tanks is even if end game tanking is fun as hell, and it looks fun honestly. I don't want to be bored getting to it. Instead of having fun leveling, I'm being led on by the carrot on a stick that is the endgame and promises of fun. Getting gladiator to even 15 felt like a chore

That, in my opinion, is why we have such a large lack of tanks. There's probably a lot more like me that don't have fun tanking right now because it doesn't show you in big flashing numbers with an exclamation point how awesome a job you're doing tanking. Simple solution to me would be to buff tank damage, like you said earlier, in a way that requires them to be tanking do so, so they can't replace real DPS. It doesn't show you how well you're tanking sure, but it is something that can be seen and that many people like to see. I'd definitely play the hell out of my tank then. Until that day though, likely the last classes I'll max. And the disparity between tanks and other classes probably won't get much better.