Yoshi - Are there any plans to make the cross class system better/more fun?

[therpgfanatic]

They should add an Onion Knight Job that has no abilities, but can equip any class items and use any class abilities.

It'd be the equivalent of the Super Novice in Ragnarok Online.

That'd do it.

[Naunet]

I would say that they designed to be useful; they are designed to lock players out of being two jobs at once.

Except they don't actually do that at all.

I like to think the class system in this way, each Base Class is the same as a Class in other MMORPG, and each Job is like a talent tree of the Class. So when we have more Jobs coming out, the system will make more sense.
So people will have variation to their Base Class(using different Job), and not so much variation when using the same Job(choosing the same talent tree).

It's close, but not quite like that, because talent tree variants in other MMOs would have completely different skill sets, whereas the current Class-->Job system means Jobs are only distinguished by five abilities. It's a stupidly limiting system, to be honest.

[Lemon8or]

There is very little skill in ARR.

I'm sorry I didn't say it better. It's not the skills you gain or use on your characters. It's the playing skills, aka performances, knowing when to use what, where to be at what time to maximize performance. Item level alleviates this but terrible players will be at the minimum achievable performance while good players will be at their maximum achievable performances and sometimes, that will be higher than the terrible players. Imagine two vertical bar of performances for two separate ilevel. A higher ilevel minimum will not always be higher than a lower ilevel maximum.

[Pooky_Pasha]

In any other game, I might agree with you. However, for ARR it is clearly gear not skill that is the difference. This is why 5 different players, all at level 50, all on the same job, all with the same skills, will be vastly different in performance based on their item level.

There is very little skill in ARR. More cross-class abilities would possibly help give us more skill-based combat/play styles. However, they decided to limit the skills and make performance gear-based.

If you don't think personal skill makes any difference, you're completely wrong. As a WAR, I consistently out-damage DPS jobs of similar ilvl (around ilvl 85), some by as much as 50%. When I switch to their job, I can almost double their damage output on the same fight. Take for example monk: I've been in Titan fights where low end monks in ilvl80-90 with Zenith relic parse out at around 100 dps. I can parse out on Titan with my ilvl73 monk with non-Zenith relic between 180-200. Some people just don't understand how their favorite job works, which no amount of gear can make up for.

[Bead]

I would like to see combo specific abilities. Like a BLM who slots two ACN abilities would open up a unique BLM/ACN abilite for his third slot. A SMN/THM would have it own unique ability. Something unique for the combos.

[Deathgiver]

The only thing that adding complexity to the choices does is: a) further increases the illusion of choice, and b) increases the length of time before the illusion is shattered. For any given role there will always be an optimal build regardless of how many choices you have, even if optimal is only 0.01% better than the next best choice. Community will always gravity to path of least resistance, and as such eventually requirements for optimal builds will always be in place. This is especially true for any skills that directly buff output, whether it's dps, hps. or dtps depending on the role. Utility skills give a little more freedom, but also are by nature much more situational and as such less desirable or exciting. While it might be fun to try out different builds to see what they can do (i.e. Vit WHM tank Titan HM), you will always revert back to optimal builds if you want to progress.

[Zarzak]

If you don't think personal skill makes any difference, you're completely wrong. As a WAR, I consistently out-damage DPS jobs of similar ilvl (around ilvl 85), some by as much as 50%. When I switch to their job, I can almost double their damage output on the same fight. Take for example monk: I've been in Titan fights where low end monks in ilvl80-90 with Zenith relic parse out at around 100 dps. I can parse out on Titan with my ilvl73 monk with non-Zenith relic between 180-200. Some people just don't understand how their favorite job works, which no amount of gear can make up for.

Not caring does not = being skill based.

Those monks are being lazy end of story. There is no skill involved in...

stands on side > 1, 2, 3 > move to back > 4, 5, 6

Which is the entirety of the monk rotation + throwing in 2 dots and 2 OGCD skills as they fade/become available

The only thing that adding complexity to the choices does is: a) further increases the illusion of choice, and b) increases the length of time before the illusion is shattered. For any given role there will always be an optimal build regardless of how many choices you have, even if optimal is only 0.01% better than the next best choice. Community will always gravity to path of least resistance, and as such eventually requirements for optimal builds will always be in place. This is especially true for any skills that directly buff output, whether it's dps, hps. or dtps depending on the role. Utility skills give a little more freedom, but also are by nature much more situational and as such less desirable or exciting. While it might be fun to try out different builds to see what they can do (i.e. Vit WHM tank Titan HM), you will always revert back to optimal builds if you want to progress.

Which is why the older MMOs who didn't adhere to the "omg we must make sure everyone can be maxed out in 30 days or less!" had..

1. you weren't lvl capped in a week. You EARNED levels they weren't given to you.

2. There weren't combos aka "these skills only work right if you use this specific sequence so
congratz we just taught you how to play your class because no other way would work"

3. at cap you had AA or Merits. Which increased the power of your character if you were willing to spend the time to get them. And there was no "Best" there was "core" (healing bonuses to healers duh grab them 1st) then everything else you picked. I want to focus on dots on my X class so I get the dot bonuses 1st. This other guy wants nukes so he gets those 1st. The 3rd guy wants to purely focus on healing so he gets all the fluff heal stuff 1st

3b. These were not SPECS so there is no such thing as "the best spec" you could get EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. If you took the time to do so. So in the long run (months or even years) sure you had them all and you were exactly the same as the guy next to you ability wise. But you still developed your own style. I didn't max merits in XI so I can't speak on that but in EQ we had 4-5 druids on our raid roster consistantly (world #2) and not one of us played the same. Some of them thought me insane for my spell lineup and ability use. I thought the same. Some of them used spells I didn't once put on my bar and visa versa. End result? The couple of us who focused on dps when our group wasn't in need of heals generally contested each other for dps depending on the event because our particular strat worked well for 1 fight or the other and all of us kept our respective groups alive.

[Fluttersnipe]

I'd love some more customization in the system as well, but that's only because PLD gets some pretty lame cross class skills .

[Gamemako]

Which is why the older MMOs who didn't adhere to the "omg we must make sure everyone can be maxed out in 30 days or less!" had..

Old MMO design was focused around not letting the player progress because the team couldn't produce that much content for players to burn through. If it were easy to level to 99 in the first few years of, say, Ragnarok Online, everyone would have quit early on for having nothing to at all to do.

[Zarzak]

Old MMO design was focused around not letting the player progress because the team couldn't produce that much content for players to burn through. If it were easy to level to 99 in the first few years of, say, Ragnarok Online, everyone would have quit early on for having nothing to at all to do.

Ok going with that logic... How is it different now exactly? You get 1-50 in (being silly) a month... You are full ilvl 90 in what 2 months only playing about 2 hours a week?

So after 1 month if your really slow you are down to playing 2-3 hours a week then being out of anything productive to do.