Some things I think need to be brought to attention

[Sotek]

Still, even the original Final Fantasy had a sense of exploration and danger, which is what this game lacks.

The original Final Fantasy, and every single one which followed it, pretty much only had a sense of danger in boss fights, which is no less true in XIV. Once you knew what you were doing, grinding overworld mobs was a chore more than anything. Anyone pretending random encounters where "omfg so tense and dangerous!" and not "omfg, this again? seriously?", isn't kidding anyone. Getting hit by heavy when on my chocobo is exactly the same feeling wanting to travel 2 more steps but getting a random encounter that was neither challenging or dangerous that every other game in the series offered.

Exploration? Comparing a single player game to a MMO is somewhat unfair. XIV does have a sense of exploration; I remember in beta (when stuck in Gridania) wondering if we'd get to explore The Ruins of Amdapor south of Camp Tranquil, and the giant ruin from Dalamud in North Shroud. Now, come 2.2, I will be able to. Colour me happy. Same thing happened for 2.1, in early access I remember fishing at Aleport and wondering if we'd get to go inside that Lighthouse, then after doing the main quest I was disappointed we didn't get to go in that Lighthouse, then 2.1 hit and I was happy to explore that Lighthouse. There is a sense of exploration in this game. Only the once of course, then it's just a grind and any sense of exploration is gone, but how is that any less true in any of the other Final Fantasy games? Once I've played them once the sense of exploration is mostly gone and I'm just going through the motions when I replay them. The only difference is I don't replay Final Fantasy very often, meanwhile I play Final Fantasy XIV fairly often because it's a MMO.

You can complain that there is no exploration once you can teleport everywhere if you like. I remember the old games for what they were; there was no sense of exploration once I had an airship and could travel anywhere I wanted very easily, either. Once you've explored the whole world and attuned yourself to all the aetherytes, going from a desert to a tundra is very easy. The exact same is true in all the other games, once you've explored the world and gotten an airship, going from a desert to a tundra takes just as long in Final Fantasy I to X.

[Susanoh]

The original Final Fantasy, and every single one which followed it, pretty much only had a sense of danger in boss fights, which is no less true in XIV. Once you knew what you were doing, grinding overworld mobs was a chore more than anything. Exploration? Comparing a single player game to a MMO is somewhat unfair. XIV does have a sense of exploration; I remember in beta (when stuck in Gridania) wondering if we'd get to explore The Ruins of Amdapor south of Camp Tranquil, and the giant ruin from Dalamud in North Shroud. Now, come 2.2, I will be able to. Colour me happy. Same thing happened for 2.1, in early access I remember fishing at Aleport and wondering if we'd get to go inside that Lighthouse, then after doing the main quest I was disappointed we didn't get to go in that Lighthouse, then 2.1 hit and I was happy to explore that Lighthouse. There is a sense of exploration in this game. Only the once of course, then it's just a grind and any sense of exploration is gone, but how is that any less true in any of the other Final Fantasy games? Once I've played them once the sense of exploration is mostly gone and I'm just going through the motions when I replay them. The only difference is I don't replay Final Fantasy very often, meanwhile I play Final Fantasy XIV fairly often because it's a MMO.

You can complain that there is no exploration once you can teleport everywhere if you like. I remember the old games for what they were; there was no sense of exploration once I had an airship and could travel anywhere I wanted very easily, either.

You're talking about instanced dungeons. Something you have to queue up for that have a single set path and no secrets, no deviation, and most importantly, aren't part of the overworld. You cannot even travel to them through the entrance if you tried to. When traveling to the entrance, you're met with the duty finder screen and given an option to queue up from there. If that's something you enjoy, more power to you, but you can't expect people disappointed with the game's world to be impressed by something which, to use your own words which I could not agree more with, "kills the world by taking you out of it at every possible chance."

[Sotek]

Ybut you can't expect people disappointed with the game's world to be impressed by something

By all means, be disappointed with it, my point is you're disappointed because of rose tinted glasses.

My first run of Sastasha? Pretty damn good. I explored it, was it linear? Mostly. There was "secrets" that you could skip, same with every dungeon in the game.
My first play through of Final Fantasy? Temple of Chaos was pretty damn good, blah blah blah, same with every dungeon in that game.

There is really no difference between them, other than the fact that you keep playing XIV over and over, where as after being done with Final Fantasy, you were. If I just went through Temple of Chaos over and over, like I do Amdapor Keep, there would be absolutely no difference. Please stop pretending there is.

[Susanoh]

By all means, be disappointed with it, my point is you're disappointed because of rose tinted glasses.

My first run of Sastasha? Pretty damn good. I explored it, was it linear? Mostly. There was "secrets" that you could skip, same with every dungeon in the game.
My first play through of Final Fantasy? Temple of Chaos was pretty damn good, blah blah blah, same with every dungeon in that game.

There is really no difference between them, other than the fact that you keep playing XIV over and over, where as after being done with Final Fantasy, you were. If I just went through Temple of Chaos over and over, like I do Amdapor Keep, there would be absolutely no difference. Please stop pretending there is.

There's a very clear difference and it's plain to see.

Every FF game: Walk around, find stuff, see what's inside.

FF14: Walk around, be directed to stuff by quest guy, get pointed into the direction of a menu that takes you out of the game world and into an instance with other players like a typical hub game.

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain it to you though, because I know that on some level you understand despite now pretending that you don't. Again, these are your words. "Only problem I have with Eorzea is the Duty Finder, which completely kills the world by taking you out of it at every possible chance... You go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again." Other FF games didn't feel like a cramped hub where you get taken out of the world to go anywhere interesting. Even the other online Final Fantasy titles (XI, the original FFXIV) did not do this. Spout nonsense like "rose tinted glasses" all you like, but even you from back one page would have understood what I'm talking about in reference to ARR, so I see no reason why you right now seems reluctant to understand.

[Sotek]

Every FF game: Walk around, find stuff, see what's inside.

FF14: Walk around, be directed to stuff by quest guy, get pointed into the direction of a menu that takes you out of the game world and into an instance with other players like a typical hub game.

I think you mean;

Every Final Fantasy game: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever.

Final Fantasy XIV: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever, queue up for that dungeon/boss/whatever (which takes no time at all if you already have a party assembled, you know, like the old games already did for you).

Seriously. Go play Final Fantasy again, or any of the other games. Then make a new character on XIV. Other than the side quests there is really very little difference.
Final Fantasy I, you're stuck wandering around outside the first town until you "decide" to enter it and continue the game.
Final Fantasy VI, sets you on the story right from the start with very little wandering around.
Final Fantasy IX, stuck in Alexandria until you progress the story, with a few side quests.
Final Fantasy XIV, stuck in your starter city, with a few NPCs to talk to, until you progress the story and unlock a bunch of side quest.

Final Fantasy IX, you're then thrown into a series of cutscenes until you end up in a linear forest. Then you get to the overworld and you can "wander" until you get to the only possible destination; the Ice Cavern. Again, pretty Linear, no less so than Sastasha. After I've played Final Fantasy IX a bit and gone through all the dungeons, gotten an airship and (for some bizarre reason) go back to the Ice Cavern, I'm no longer exploring it because I already have. The exact same is true for Final Fantasy XIV. First run of Sastasha is exploring it, after that I'm not. Complaining that "there is no exploration like the old games" is complete and utter bullshit. They are exactly the same, except for that fact that you don't ever finish a MMO.

Yes, I know exactly what I said. Guess what? Final Fantasy <whatever> had "you go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again" because you very rarely ever needed to go back there ever again once you've cleared it. My issue with the Duty Finder is in relation to other (older) MMOs, not single player RPGs which are a completely different entity and really shouldn't be compared to MMOs in the way most people are here.

The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV?

[Susanoh]

I think you mean;

Every Final Fantasy game: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever.

Final Fantasy XIV: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever, queue up for that dungeon/boss/whatever (which takes no time at all if you already have a party assembled, you know, like the old games already did for you).

Seriously. Go play Final Fantasy again, or any of the other games. Then make a new character on XIV. Other than the side quests there is really very little difference.
Final Fantasy I, you're stuck wandering around outside the first town until you "decide" to enter it and continue the game.
Final Fantasy VI, sets you on the story right from the start with very little wandering around.
Final Fantasy IX, stuck in Alexandria until you progress the story, with a few side quests.
Final Fantasy XIV, stuck in your starter city, with a few NPCs to talk to, until you progress the story and unlock a bunch of side quest.

Final Fantasy IX, you're then thrown into a series of cutscenes until you end up in a linear forest. Then you get to the overworld and you can "wander" until you get to the only possible destination; the Ice Cavern. Again, pretty Linear, no less so than Sastasha. After I've played Final Fantasy IX a bit and gone through all the dungeons, gotten an airship and (for some bizarre reason) go back to the Ice Cavern, I'm no longer exploring it because I already have. The exact same is true for Final Fantasy XIV. First run of Sastasha is exploring it, after that I'm not. Complaining that "there is no exploration like the old games" is complete and utter bullshit. They are exactly the same, except for that fact that you don't ever finish a MMO.

Yes, I know exactly what I said. Guess what? Final Fantasy <whatever> had "you go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again" because you very rarely ever needed to go back there ever again once you've cleared it. My issue with the Duty Finder is in relation to other (older) MMOs, not single player RPGs which are a completely different entity and really shouldn't be compared to MMOs in the way most people are here.

The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV?

All this text and you still refuse to acknowledge the biggest point that separates the world of FF14 ARR from every Final Fantasy game (online or offline, including the original FF14) before it. That being that all the areas in all of those older FF games were a part of the world, and most of the areas in FF14 ARR are outside of the world in a location that you get to by queueing up as if you were playing a hub game like Phantasy Star Online. I have nothing against hub games, by the way. They're fine games in their own right. But they come with their own set of advantages and disadvantages, and having a large seamless world is not one of those advantages. I'm not quite sure why you continue babbling on about all of this other nonsense rather than the one point that was in the comment you actually responded to. That being that FF14 feels like a hub game where most interesting zones are outside of the world, other FF games do not. Not everyone is going to prefer the same types of games, and even if you're now suddenly big on the whole "queue up for everything and leave the world to go to isolated instances" for everything now, it doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

[Sotek]

All this text and you still refuse to acknowledge the biggest point that separates the world of FF14 ARR from every Final Fantasy game (online or offline, including the original FF14) before it.

I'm not acknowledging that because that wasn't what I was arguing against... In fact, I've already stated that there is a problem there and given input on possible improvements. If this is your point, I don't know why you're arguing against me.

At the end of the day, Final Fantasy XIV is no different to the older games, other than the fact that you need a group of other, real, people. In fact, in every way that matters, it is superior. People (yourself included) are pretending that the older games were somehow better in this regard, which is completely false.

I said as much in my original posts, how where the old games better when it comes to exploration or danger? They weren't. XIV clearly wins on exploration (compare Alexandria up to Dali, to the start of XIV to Sastasha. Alexandria to Dali is pretty much linear, XIV the moment you're out of the starting city you could technically travel to Mor Dhona). Danger? All random encounters became a drag, very quickly. They were not dangerous. They added no tension to the games. Just like getting hit by gravity in XIV.

You *can* take level 1 characters anywhere but through some of the strongholds. Even the Sylphlands, as long as you're careful. Why don't you make a new character and get it to Ishgard? You probably won't even need to use Sprint. o.o;

Well, as long as you don't start in Limsa Lominsa. Anyway, my point was it wouldn't be instant, and you would have to avoid monsters which can one shot you at that level (*cough*danger*cough*). People only think the world is small because once you've gotten to the end, you can travel everywhere easily with teleports. The exact same holds true in the old games, traveling Gaia in IX isn't hard once you have an airship, just like traveling Eorzea isn't hard once you can teleport. People complaining that XIV is some how less in this regard are bordering on delusional...

[Kiayin]

The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV?

You *can* take level 1 characters anywhere but through some of the strongholds. Even the Sylphlands, as long as you're careful. Why don't you make a new character and get it to Ishgard? You probably won't even need to use Sprint. o.o;