Garuda Ex NA/Japanese style

[Vodomir]

Melee DPS doesn't necessarily have to "tank it"

But I'm actually not interested in intentionally slowing down on DPS just to let a ranged DD tank it. This doesn't exactly speed up the kill.

Chirada doesn't do a lot of damage other than her skills, Slipstream (dodge it), Friction (dodge it). Downburst is the only threat to DPS which can be mitigated a lot when all 4 dps stack together.

It's not about Chirada's DPS, it's about grabbing aggro due to higher DPS so any competent melee DPS will end up tanking her.

I've done this a lot and I say if you know you're stuff, you won't be having problems with your positional skills, especially since you'll be busy using LB1 on Chirada anyway.

We don't use any LB on Chirada and just kill Garuda with LB2/LB3, when her HP are low enough.

Also note, after Chirada is dead, Suprana doesn't cast Wicked Wheel anymore.

Yeah, that's actually the same with the "provoke method", JP style doesn't have an edge here.

And this way doesn't require 3 tanks.

Of course not, but one of your DPS will have to fill in as a third "tank".

The DPS just unload on Chirada immediately and if your DPS is good enough you can kill her right when Garuda/Suparna switch places. Typically a BRD will end up tanking anyway just because they are ranged and their damage is front-loaded and their DoTs are so potent.

The "provoke" method also immediately unloads on Chirada and I'd say no to a Bard ending up to be the tank, if your melee DPS know how to play their classes.

DPS should all stack right in front of Chirada, this makes is easiest to avoid slip stream. This includes ranged DPS and positional Melee DPS. You will kill it plenty fast enough without the positioning.

Stacking in front of Chirada does again equal DPS loss. What exactly is the advantage of the JP style method, other then to make up for either bad tanks and/or bad healers?

How is the other one NA method?

Don't really know if this is an NA method, but this is how we handle things in EU:

- OT grabs Chirada and the Spiny Plume and takes them to the South-East
- Melee DPS will follow the OT, all of your DPS (incl. range) will focus on killing Chirada first
- MT grabs Garuda and Suparna and takes them to the North-West
- healers and ranged DPS will go to the South-West
- Once Chirada is dead, the OT will provoke Suparna and drag her into the melee corner
- Once OT is at 2 stacks, your MT will provoke Spiny and start to prepare it to be at < 20% HP before the jump
- all of your DPS focus in killing Suparna and then switch to Garuda for the remainder of the time
- when Garuda jumps, just kill the Spiny and you are set and done

This method has only 2 people tanking (dedicated tanks), allows positionals for your melee DPS, doesn't require ranged DDs to be in melee range and totally avoids any whicked wheel on the melee DPS. Your main tank will have to handle a double Whicked Wheel, but this is easily done by using Cooldowns.

I really don't see any advantage in using the JP method, unless you have to make up for fail tanks.

[Maku]

Stacking in front of Chirada does again equal DPS loss. What exactly is the advantage of the JP style method, other then to make up for either bad tanks and/or bad healers?


- healers and ranged DPS will go to the South-West

I never said there was an advantage to doing it our way. Just was explaining it. It does make for a very smooth fight and can be easily done with not the best of players which is important when doing puggroups. Also, the DPS stack in front of Chirada because I believe her one move is an AoE frontal swing that the damage is divided between the people she hits. This isn't slipstream. I could be wrong on this but when this fight first came out I was dieing to something Chirada was doing on my BRD until another DPS said everyone should stack and then we had no problem. Yes it is a DPS lose but it isn't a DPS lose that really affects anything cause you still kill in plenty of time often before Chirada uses Friction.

Also, Healers should be kept separate from the rest of the party as much as possible in this fight because Garuda's unavoidable frictions always target healers so if they are away from everyone they are the only ones getting hit.

[snowybell]

Your way is what we usually do, but SOME players are so persistant about having one DPS pull suparna, and insisting "best strat gtfo noob".

[Sibyll]

I really don't see any advantage in using the JP method, unless you have to make up for fail tanks.

Couldn't you make the argument that the only advantage of using the NA method is to make up for fail DPS that can't stack for Downburst or avoid slip stream? At the end of the day you are increasing the gear requirement for the main tank and the healer so that one melee DPS can get his positional bonuses.

[SarcasmMisser]

Couldn't you make the argument that the only advantage of using the NA method is to make up for fail DPS that can't stack for Downburst or avoid slip stream?

I would agree with this, people keep on forgetting how much of a free pass the NA method gives the dps. I think it's all about distributing difficulty depending on your composition, I've done one cycle runs with either method so people who say a 3 stack is a dps loss need to go do their homework. 3 stacks are very good when you have 5 dps with 2 or more melee, when it's 4 dps with one melee either way seems fine. When it's all ranged it makes sense to 2 stack.

However what people want to do is instead design their composition around their strategy, and not the other way around. Being inflexible with your strats is bad play, I think there's a strat to suit any dps composition on Garuda.

This is why we preach on about 3 stacking, it has it's use but people are bad and don't want to think outside the box.

[Vodomir]

Couldn't you make the argument that the only advantage of using the NA method is to make up for fail DPS that can't stack for Downburst or avoid slip stream?

Nope, the provoke method makes sure that everyone can focus on their actual job. So DPS focus on DPS and don't have to either avoid Whicked Wheels (which will take away from your DPS as you will have to back up from your target as a melee) or stack up in front of your target (so to lose out on positionals) or even worse be forced to tank (which isn't actually the responsibility of a DPS class in the first place). Tanks are there to take care of the tanking part, so why would you want to take away from their tanking duty?

At the end of the day you are increasing the gear requirement for the main tank and the healer so that one melee DPS can get his positional bonuses.

No, it doesn't really increase the gear requirement, as it's more a question of utilizing your defensive cooldowns rather than having a big HP pool to just suck it up. And I'm not talking about one melee DPS. The provoke method actually works with any kind of DPS setup, you could as well bring 4 melees.

[Akirakogami]

how does melee pull/keep agro on chirada?

[valho]

how does melee pull/keep agro on chirada?

The DPS that attack Chirada first will get agro, I have seen both melee/range pulling Chirada. Most of the time Chirada die fast enough without having to worry that it will agro on someone else. Both are viable strategy I have done both method plenty of time, have seen both method fail and succeed, the success rate are pretty much the same. My coil healer prefer the JP method, though I never really ask him why, my FC uses the NA method though.

[Sibyll]

Nope, the provoke method makes sure that everyone can focus on their actual job.So DPS focus on DPS and don't have to either avoid Whicked Wheels (which will take away from your DPS as you will have to back up from your target as a melee) or stack up in front of your target (so to lose out on positionals) or even worse be forced to tank (which isn't actually the responsibility of a DPS class in the first place). Tanks are there to take care of the tanking part, so why would you want to take away from their tanking duty?

Chirada doesn't do Wicked Wheel and I'm pretty sure Suparna stops doing Wicked Wheel after Chirada dies (please correct otherwise), so neither strategy should require the DPS to avoid Wicked Wheel. Downburst (the stack mechanic) is cast after Friction, so really the DPS only need to stack after Friction is cast meaning that even a 4 melee DPS composition would only have 1 melee DPS not getting positional bonuses (the "tank").

DPS in WoW only DPS. DPS in this game are expected, and fully capable, of doing more than simply DPSing. They have Class Skills (Featherfoot, Keen Flurry, Fists of Earth) and Cross Class Skills (Foresight) intended for light tanking.

I'm not implying either strategy is "better" as that's a bit subjective, but the NA method is basically throwing more mechanics at the tanks and healers for the sake of giving the DPS less to worry about, hence why I said it's making up for DPS that fail at mechanics (which it is).

No, it doesn't really increase the gear requirement, as it's more a question of utilizing your defensive cooldowns rather than having a big HP pool to just suck it up. And I'm not talking about one melee DPS. The provoke method actually works with any kind of DPS setup, you could as well bring 4 melees.

For a tank going in there at ilvl 65-70 there is very little room for error on NA method, even if the tank is utilizing CDs properly. If you go in there with ilvl 80+ gear, which the majority of groups running NA strategy are in, then this doesn't become an issue because of the larger health pools. So yes, I would say that utilizing this strategy is artificially increasing the gear requirement for the tank and possibly healer role. It'd be like running Hydra and having the off tank pick up the adds so the DPS wouldn't be inconvenienced and having the main tank solo Hydra; it's possible if you over gear the content enough.

Once again, I'm not saying one is better, but implying that the JP method is for fail tanks seems quite silly considering the NA method is just throwing more mechanics on the MT so that the DPS don't have to think about mechanics.

I would agree with this, people keep on forgetting how much of a free pass the NA method gives the dps. I think it's all about distributing difficulty depending on your composition, I've done one cycle runs with either method so people who say a 3 stack is a dps loss need to go do their homework. 3 stacks are very good when you have 5 dps with 2 or more melee, when it's 4 dps with one melee either way seems fine. When it's all ranged it makes sense to 2 stack.

However what people want to do is instead design their composition around their strategy, and not the other way around. Being inflexible with your strats is bad play, I think there's a strat to suit any dps composition on Garuda.

This is why we preach on about 3 stacking, it has it's use but people are bad and don't want to think outside the box.

I agree with everything you said. People see one strategy that works and take it as optimal without thinking of how to better improve their tactics. Just because something can be made to work doesn't mean it's the best way of doing it.

One clarification: what are you referring to when you say 2 and 3 stacking?

[Chihaya]

I play on a JP server so don't have much experience with the way that MT takes Garuda and Suparna other than the first set of adds.

At least on my data center, Garuda EX have pretty high chance of success with Duty Finder so it works pretty well.