Tank and heal shortage

[lxSch]

Just saying - taking less responsible role means very long queue, and then someone less capable may be playing that role, so run may either take very long time or even fail. I know - tanker/healer gets all the hate if something goes wrong (many people simply quit if i dont revive them), but i just do my part and do not care about the rest (including what they say or think). If i did my best, but people still hate me - then they are not right about it (there is nothing i could do more), so it should not bother me. Also i never talk in team chat besides hi/bye/1st_time - reduces hatred received dramatically.

[Kinseykinz]

The tank shortage is becoming more serious as it influences all queues. The game could benefit from making people want to tank more. Maybe give them more shiny armor pieces

Actually, all they'd need to do is make it logical for a DD role (s) to become the 'puller' and allow tanks to position themselves to grab/aggro the mobs and hold them in position. It's not the job that turns people off as much as the job+the constant pace-setting for the group+ added responsibility. So if SE could figure out a way to make it so a DD was the logical 'puller' then all the sudden, a DD and not the tanks would be responsible for setting the group pace through trash mobs...AND lessen some of the tanks responsibility while giving the DD a little more of the group shared responsibility.

(IE, give tanks a move that + increases their DD/DEF or EMN if they pull mobs off a teammate...and maybe give select DD's (doesn't have to be every dd) a +attack/skill speed/acc or -emn bonus for holding hate/swapping their hate with another party member.

This of course, is just an idea...but the main reason many players opt to NOT tank/heal=added pressure/knowledge needed or more responsibility. If SE could figure out a way to take some of the tanks NON role-specific pressures away, then maybe, more people who enjoy the gameplay of tank...but not the pressure of being the 'leader'/'pacesetter' would play the role.

Shiny armor won't work.
Shorter Queues afterall doesn't work...all this does is allow some 'abusive' players a way to abuse the system (Spamming withdraw for the 'fast queue'), tarnishing the good name of many tanks in the process....AND turning even more people off to the role (people who think...I don't wanna be associated with those kind of players)
Better 'Player in Need' rewards don't work well either.

So basically, bribes won't work...SE needs to look at the mechanics/party responsibilitys and make adjustments there...and even then, people either like to heal or they don't...same is true with tanking. Not everyone likes giving up personal damage output for defense...just like not everyone likes to do an epic battle without throwing out a single attack spell or move, all while keeping their party alive (healing) or taking max damage to their face without falling through mitigation and sheer will (tanking).

[Duelle]

So basically, bribes won't work...SE needs to look at the mechanics/party responsibilitys and make adjustments there...and even then, people either like to heal or they don't...same is true with tanking. Not everyone likes giving up personal damage output for defense...just like not everyone likes to do an epic battle without throwing out a single attack spell or move, all while keeping their party alive (healing) or taking max damage to their face without falling through mitigation and sheer will (tanking).

The problem is a combination of responsibility and aesthetics. You can give more tank variety to fix the latter (BST and SAM as tanks would be very different from WAR and PLD), but the former will be a main deterrent from tanking for some for a while.

And making needlessly complicated mechanics won't do the trick.

[Kewitt]

Then level a tank and healer job.

[fistantalius]

I roll a DRG main. I take my role in groups seriously. As a Dps class I find it my job too take out the adds as fast I as I can too reduce the amount of damage on the tank if possible. I also find myself solo killing the adds on the tonberry king in Wp.. even when we have a BLM in group. cause they do not kill them fast enough or do not know how too do it. But then again I was showed how too do things like that from a group of FFXi and 1.0 players. That stressed it was the DPS job too kill the adds and get them. I also role as a tank WAR to be honest. I notice when I tank for groups alot of them are like take it too the tank. Have him Flash them and hold them and focus on the boss. What does this do.. it puts more pressure on the tank and the healer. Cause now the healer has to burn extra MP too heal the tank. and the tank at times has too go down to the last inch of health for the healer too gain mp back. So yes as a DPS I take my responsablity to the tank and healer very seriously.

[Marxam]

If we didn't look like walking tin cans more people might be inclined to tank. I'm only a tank because I thought the Warrior was a dps (derp lol) when FFXIV:ARR beta went live. However I have tanked/dps/healed in other games so I'm comfortable with any class. I love big axes and being a War, then Pld, as the game progress only made me fall in love with tanking. Nothing beats the feeling of having your party wipe from an attack with only you as a the survivor and still manage to solo the the boss, and win.

Also we need more axe's like the Dual Hakan and make it bigger. Currently the weapon, I think the Primal axe is the only one that does this, shrinks when sheathed but expands when drawn. I think it should stay the same, drawn size when sheathed so it gives that feeling of "I look badass, with my giant axe" which will always impress people and maybe encourage them to try the class so they can replicate that said feeling for themselves.

[Lilyanna]

I leveled a DPS first then both healer jobs. I decided to try tanking because I've tanked before in other MMO's. I did 5 dungeons from 15 - 18 and it was a complete nightmare. People are too rude, too much in a rush and all are about the "ME ME ME".

It could have been that I queue'ed during Prime Time (I've always noticed over many MMO's that morning time is the best time in terms of helping/less rushed people )

[Galactimus]

Solution
~~~~~

a) Give Tanks a "Token" each time they complete a non-premade "Duty Finder" Dungeon (not Guildhests.) Similar to Commendations only they'd be "Tank only." Completing 'different' dungeons each day would give you 1 Token for each. Doing the same Dungeon twice in the same day would not yield two Tokens.

These accumulated Tokens would then be spent on Mount(s), Gear, Vanity items, Housing Items Etc. The rewards themselves don't have to be "Tank only". You could throw in rewards that DPS would be interested in; giving them incentive to participate in Duty Finder ques as a Tank.

b) Release Dark Knight. Make it a Tank. Put it into the Lancer class. Give it a Scythe (Polearm). Make it overpowered for eight weeks; then nerf it when the Tank quota has been met.

[Chayala]

I didn't see it addressed, but I have to point out that lowering the tank DPS with the "Tanking" buffs we get is infact detrimental. The reason being(And the reason shield oath got an enmity boost in the warrior patch) is very simple. You do not generate as much hatred except with flash as you do WITHOUT SHIELD OATH FOR SINGLE TARGETS. Often times(And a few times i'll admit. I screwed up and didn't switch) i'd start off in sword oath run in with FoF up and rampart get all the hate in the world and as soon as rampart goes down bam. Shield oath. Hate is locked beyond what anyone can do. Except in the case of holding adds with flash(such as speed runs) which is enmity increased by a % from shield oath the sword oath adds MORE agro just from not screwing with the damage to extra enmity you get. Don't think that's the case? Get two equally geared paladins into CT. On an unimportant fight have them pick out a target the rest of the raid is not killing. Pull. Your sword oath paladin can and will hold agro with about a 20% margin on your shield oath paladin. IMO damage reduction needs a minor cut or enmity generation needs a minor bump as normally in any other game a defensive stance tends to make things want to attack you MORE than non defensive stance(Except fire emblem where mages will go to fry a tank and a paladin will go and smack a mage). Kinda a rant, and kinda lurking but it's the truth. As a tank I rarely ever felt dps had responsbility aside from DPS checks. And to me that's not responsbility. that's "Hey are you guys here and do you know how to do your job?". Real responsiblity is say coil 1 feeding slimes. Ever have a great DPS(Kima, Spike, Urd) purposely forcing tail swipes to prevent damage to the tank while aptly dodging? These are things that go above and beyond "Are you a semi-comptent character". Dodging slimes and getting max dps is a gear check since you can litereally set your DPS rotation into a SINGLE BUTTON. My bard friend showed me and I was amazed by it. They were also a bard who was kinda pushed into that place because we needed a bard who could go healer(They had been healing primarily). So, i'll say feeding and doing stuff like forcing NPC's to do stuff like tail swipes and then NOT getting hit are things that a dps can take responsibility and can own for. Things to make them say "You can't ignore me i pull my weight" but if you look at anything that dps do most the time they're not really that impressive. Before i finally got sick of the game I was blessed with the three best DPS that I Had found in this game and they all went well and above what you all seem to think is responisbility. They'd apologize or admit to things and even took responsibility when I didn't think it was their fault.

DPS HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY THEY TAKE. Tanks have 100% responsibility about 75% of the time. healers get it the other 25% of the time in most groups. And despite the fact that the dps just pulled 2 extra packs in WP(That we live through) it's somehow my fault. I've sat down and said unless someone vote kicks him for harassing me for SAVING HIM i'd afk and they could kick me. The DPS in this game minus the few good ones I've met (Like the against all odds PS3 player Leroy) are the worst of ANY game i've played. f2p or not. Tanks will continue to decrease as long as they are treated like crap. And tanks who are treated like crap are going to have an attitude. So that paladin who acts like a dick? Maybe he wasn't always a dick. Maybe playing with others did that to him. Or maybe he's a dick. But we can't know that. And it is NOT a friendly environment for leveling a tank.

I leveled a low level tank to test the waters on how people would feel on even low level jobs... I knew the limitations and i amde mistakes that were recoverable. The group would recover, nobody would die. There was rarely any congrats to the people who ended up helping me with "Mess up" (Which i more or less had control over) there was elitist shit thrown at me that I haven't seen since I raided in EVERQUEST with the guild TRITON or Firestormers before they fell from grace. Ok yeah you needed elitist crap with that content with 54 man crazy shit. But at least there was reasons for that considering any combat round could one shot a tank if everyone wasn't perfect(Yes it was that stupid at times. There was even a god damned hokey pokey thing where if people didn't do what you were supposed to everyone died. YAY). But those people in normal content that makes this crap look retardedly easy were understanding and caring about it. For minor mistakes like purposely losing hate on a mob with 1/8th health left to a lancer I was lectured about how much of a failure I was(AF level synced lancer compared to a lalafell in store/quest gear) and how i should just pick up a DPS. If you had a semi competent tank who lost hate only 3 times on their first run through the dungeon on unimportant parts(Which I did and this is what I claimed) what must the REAL new players be dealing with? You want new players to pick tanks with this being the way I was treated in a few different groups? I can't understand it.

In various posts i've stated my issues with the thread but this is my thoughts on it. in short. Tanks and heals are in short supply because they are held up to a higher standard while all the DPS of the game say they're not. DPS say they shouldn't be rewarded and will blame everything they can on the healer or tank. "I died! Tank or healer sucks!" not "I died... shoulda avoided that tail swipe... or been behind that gargoyle in AK...). It's not just high level. So you're gonna have the people who don't wanna play with other characters and will do fates because everyone loves even a half ok tank in a fate as long as they can flash and throw some damage. Or they do Leves or quests. In my opinion there should be (And correct me if you think i'm wrong) houses that are in each city. These are like the old FFIV houses. In it you can go in and find out the basics of the game. Perhaps have some mock fights. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained. Perhaps have Them walk you through effective uses of tank rotations. Which rotations to pair(Because some are weak alone but work well together. Increase shield block and no crits is a HUGE boon when strapped for real damage reduction on turn 1/3. Give them a challenge for each level. sync them down cap their stats to the trials(For all classes). For DPS they have to kill a mob in X time without removing it from the hate of the instructor who will be "Tanking" it. Tanks will have to hold the threat against the instructor. Heals would have to keep the healer up. If this happened, and you went through quests starting at 1 and going every 5 levels and you gained minor traits or perhaps in dungeon minions that will work for your character or something to show you've worked hard at your job and not just been carried. I know it would need balance but it would train people right. having these trials would be a wonderful way to deal with people not understanding their jobs because they want something that effects their job. And for the love of god, DO NOT MAKE IT SUPER LAG DEPENDANT. I have little to no lag(Although i spike when everyone else spikes no helping that) but that doesn't mean others don't. Make it so that it is certain the person who is facing the trials understands the use of their abilities. If not a minion to help them how about a GOOD ring that you can get that will scale up (And with each tier of gear going up more stuff is added to train people) that has materia slots in it. Now don't go yelling super casual or super hard core. I'm talking about things that people would be working on. Would the highest ring be hard to get? Yes. Why? Because. You are learning the hardest and most advanced portions of your class. This doesn't limit you and it doesn't take away from you. Infact you would probably be able to get a fairly good ring easily if you just started. And then learn a little better on how to deal with unusual circumstances or other things like that as more is introduced. Limit break had a big thing in that it let you see that there was a ceiling you coudln't push through... but you could break it. And each time you broke it you felt WONDERFUL. This would hopefully do the same thing without limiting the character. Now people in full primal gear might not care. But people in full primal/Allagan gear might look at someone who has their ring at second or third highest level and go "Hey. He's not the best geared. but let's give him a chance. He's done up to X. Proof he cares about his job." As it stands Relics are pity weapons. anyone can get them and many have a bunch if not all of them. I could but i just didn't care. And i've killed titan hard mode enough times to do so if i had bothered to level up more than just my smn/war/sch/pld. And that's the problem.
Everyone is awash in a sea of "everyone is the same". But that's not true. When building my coil group I had so many bad players. So many liars and cheats and people who thought they could get away with eating level 1 food when we were trying to progress because they didn't care. I removed them. Especially since as a cook i told them ahead of time that i would go make some acceptable food quick if they'd just supply some shards(I always tried to end recruiting half an hour before we went in). But you can't check class knowledge or effort as accurately here. yes people bought relics in FFXI... but it was rare. and it costs THOUSANDS. and everyone on the server KNEW. That crappy ranger who nobody likes got their relic? Isn't he poor? Ah... Gil sellers... Here we see people who have gotten their relics. Be it carried or not. I can't look at a relic or 90 gear and say "Hey I picked a winner!" Now you might be saying "casual vs elitist" but how long does a trial need to be? Do they need to be done at once? Could each trial be built around showing how you react to mechanics with maybe a 2 times a day attempt? 5 minutes max? With a reward that is quite good and could somehow be paired off with crafters to help fix that problem as well? Perhaps add them to the process? Who knows.

Now you're gonna say it's way off track. I'm going to say this to you. I am not. There are a great many tanks. I've known many MANY people with capped tanks. Most don't tank duty roulette for one reason or another. They fate leveled, or do not have confidence in their abilities. Others dislike dealing with random pugs because they don't want to be blamed whenever a dps brings an extra Dullahan or something and has it cleave the healer and everyone else. They can't trust healers they don't know because often times free companies(And mine is guilty of this and i tried to stay away from this) would go in a 3 heals 4 dps 1 tank rotation where or 2 heals 4 dps 2 tank or 2 heals 5 dps 1 tank rotation depending on who was carried. I hated this and avoided these groups but they happen. So tanks who have a high stress job and get lots of lip from everyone maybe do their daily and that is IT. Want more seals? wanna make more money? They go and do crap with FC or friends list. That's just how it is. Then there are the ones who are good tanks but are thin skinned. they can't take the fact that they're blamed for everything in alot of cases and when they try and point out what really would have happened people go with the "Oh i forgot, tanks can do no wrong". And while decent tanks they often give up on it for something else or just stick to FC. So you have alot of angry dps who know alot of things(but not really) Pushing the tanks who DO que up out of the random que beyond what they need for mythologies. But remember, CT is a great place to farm that while not having to care as a tank either.

Bottom line. The Tank and healer issue is a player problem. Both tanks and healers who decide they don't want to randomly group with people(For valid reasons) and DPS(Both the good and the bad have to pay the price for the very vocal DPS who act like jerks all the time and can do no wrong. As someone under that pressure if you're not used to it, would you bother playing with strangers when you can't tell what type of people they are? The commendation system is fine and all but people just do the leves for it since they're fast and work way better. People as a whole need to step up their game not just in playing it, but in accepting their own faults as well as the faults of their own. as a coil leader(former) I'd be the first to be like huh. Okay guys. I ....Words i probably shouldn't say on forum.... again. My bad. My bad. We need to sacrifice a lalafell to get my mind back on track. Most people int his game aren't interested in what REALLY went wrong but on who the blame can be pinned on most easily. and in a pug, it's the tank. Minus HM. that's where a tank can stand back dodge bombs and be like 'So. Why ya'll screwin up?".

As to dark knight I don't think that would help. You'd be putting a brand new class that differs wildly from the main class and you'd end up with so many clueless tanks ever. If we wanted a new tank class like dark knight i'd say a FFIV style cecil one mixed with some FFtactics(The ps1/psp one). Life drains, damage boosts, fairly high armor high hp and some squishy. This class could very well be the magic melee class where their magic works off their main stat(str) and often time has an HP component. This would work. But we have the tools. And a great many level 50 paladins who DO NOT PLAY THE CLASS. What would adding ANOTHER group of people with a level 50 tank who know nothing about it add to this? It won't reduce que times and would probably have people just deflect it with the "oh i haven't geared up for dark knight yet". The real thing that has to happen is that this community has to calm down and figure out how to treat people in general. But there is nothing in this game to do that. We have no community because nothing is based on server. Even infinite respawnable monsters where you got the parts from killing random mobs or even from completing dungeons(Say you get a quest. you go do WP, AK, Temple of Q then you have a complete item to summon a monster). These monsters will be based for the team and disappear without it. BUt you have to do with people on your own server. Even if it was an illusion, the free gear from FFXI(oh and now i'ma be burned at the stake) that came from competition from conquest points was a GOOD THING early on. You had people developing community and setting up parties and jobs just to go capture certain zones back if it was close. You had so many things that made people want or need to work together. Why not have shop controlled stuff, and crafted items based on both country dominance AND dungeon drops be the ultimate quest. Like Relics. You had a crafter at the center of that. Why? Why not include the crafters in the epic quest? Why not make people feel like a community rather than a bunch of strangers who they might see passing by on the street or maybe in a dungeon? You can try and "Create" community in a game all you want. But if the world doesn't lend itself to that it's very hard to get it to stick. back in 1.0 i'll admit i never made it past like 35 and it was on a trio of crafting classes I had a number of friends i made on masamune who never came back. I would supply them stuff help them with things. I even repaired stuff before they went out to do long hunts. Simple things like this made us talk. In my opinion they've broken the economy beyond belief but if they do manage to fix it, the ability to set a "Haggle" box on the thing that lets you send a haggle message to the person if they are online (A proposed price as well as a small message) would allow communication. I quit, and I had a right to be disappointed. i bought CE both times. I loved FFXI and i loved alot of square's work. But I'm beginning to think that their best is behind them and that they are quickly becoming capcom to me. You are all playing an MMo that won't allow large FC's to work together or group up and has end game content that does more to break apart these FC's(because people are upset that others get in to the static when they wanted the spot). And again you might think it's off topic. But this isn't either. This all leads to community. If you are part of a community you care about it. Even the people you don't like you won't be as vile towards. But in a game where nothing matters, there are no controls, you can't be told to fix your damage, you can't be kicked from a party for failing to do your job, where crafting is a hilariously useless thing except for other crafters and VERY VERY select items.... What do you expect of the "community". I honestly can't see this being called a community. A Massive multiplayer online game shows that stuff should lend towards the MMo. That large groups of people should be able to do things. even EQ before raids had large things to do. This is the only game i've encountered where your whole free company/guild can't do stuff aside from money farm or spirit bond in multiple separate groups. Look at a game like Anarchy online, or EQ now. Those games still have superb communities. They may be "Elite" but they're still around. Look at that bioware game with the star wars name. what was it? KoTOR III online? It followed alot of the things this game is doing. I've never met a "New" gamer who wants to hit cap level ultra fast. I've actually had new gamers come and play EQ or something which i've necroed my account and made a new character and we take it nice and slow. They don't know that my SK could get us to 100 from level 1 in 2 days with about 600-800 aa's(That's bad aa's but those would come quick after). They enjoy the exploration. They like finding lore books, stuff on the ground or invisible walls. They laugh at the graphics but say that all the stuff is cool. And then they keep playing for a while. Longer than I do(I just can't stand how high end has developed in that game and the fact that now that SK is "Cool" people bitch at me for having it as a FoTM class... When she was made in early 2000. Also, dark elf female. No stun resistance. Not l33t in that respect. Everything i got on that character i earned the hardest way possible. But that's the point. new to MMo people play a game like this and rush to 50 and without a good community(there ARE NICE PEOPLE WHO TEACH. I DID TOO. THIS IS THE MINORITY) they are met with alot of grief if they do anything BUT dps. and even then they're not in a great place.

So in closing... We don't have a Tank and heal shortage. We have a community shortage considering everyone in this thread has gladiator/warrior as a class they can play.

Sorry for rant. I believe what I said. I do not believe it is off track but i do believe it stretches the topic a little bit to look at what i believe to be the main CAUSES of what the topic complains about.

[AiChyan]

When people quit going crazy if healers/tanks commit any mistakes there will be more of them. I'm a healer, I derp and commit mistakes just like every other player, and I learn from those mistakes.
I had to develop thick skin because otherwise, I would quit healing or playing altogether. But not many is willing to cope with the negativity. Everyone is here to have fun, and if you make their lives miserable, they won't really have a reason to play anymore and therefore shortages happen.