Personally, I'd rather you scrap the Armoury System then Lock 1 Job to 1 Weapon.

[Duelle]

Kilta, the thing about that is it isn't SE that intentionally makes up certain job combinations that are requirements, its the playerbase and elitism that set those boundaries. I doubt that SE will be able to balance each and every class perfectly enough to where this doesn't happen. Players will always find the best way to do things, how to do them, and when to do them. Thats how it is in any MMORPG.

WoW's PvE balance would like to have a word with you. How is it that Blizz can put emphasis on party/raid comp balance while allowing players to pick their favorite spec and be useful to their raid while SE somehow couldn't/can't?

[Sephr]

That's my concern with the system too, but honestly I think it's likely we'll get more roles per class in the future, because every class has the potential for more than one role. They won't adjust conjurer or thaumaturge to be more 'whm-focussed' because they want to keep the classes versatile so they can perform in low-man situations effectively.

Classes are jelly, jobs are the mould put on said jelly.

I want jelly.

[Sephr]

WoW's PvE balance would like to have a word with you. How is it that Blizz can put emphasis on party/raid comp balance while allowing players to pick their favorite spec and be useful to their raid while SE somehow couldn't/can't?

Becuase Wow is set up completely differently from FFXIV? Talent trees are so homogenous in that game and there's practically no customisation to speak of. I don't see how this comparison makes sense, being as in WoW you just pick from a bunc h of presets anyway. Jobs in FFXIV will basically work out like talent trees in wow, except the base job-less class is still useful.

In fact, using wow as an example using wow. You could say any FFXIV class is kinda ike druid, able to fill different roles but none particularly well pre-talents. The talents are then applied over the top of that base, limiting certain areas and vastly improving others. Whilst it's not a perfect comparison, if we get numerous jobs per class in the future, that would be fairly similar.

[Bled]

That's my concern with the system too, but honestly I think it's likely we'll get more roles per class in the future, because every class has the potential for more than one role. They won't adjust conjurer or thaumaturge to be more 'whm-focussed' because they want to keep the classes versatile so they can perform in low-man situations effectively.

Classes are jelly, jobs are the mould put on said jelly.

I want jelly.

mmmmm with it being morning i could really go for some jelly and toast.

[Duelle]

Becuase Wow is set up completely differently from FFXIV? Talent trees are so homogenous in that game and there's practically no customisation to speak of. I don't see how this comparison makes sense, being as in WoW you just pick from a bunch of presets anyway. Jobs in FFXIV will basically work out like talent trees in wow, except the base job-less class is still useful.

The underlying point in my saying that is that WoW's devs workes their asses off to take PvE balance to a point where people were no longer pigeonholed into specs. It's the difference between being told "lol heal or gtfo" as a Paladin during The Burning Crusade and being able to finally spec Retribution, grab a two-handed hammer and bash skulls in with holy might like I wanted to do since I rolled the class during vanilla.

That was my big gripe with Red Mage, because Blizz did with Paladin what I wanted SE to do with Red Mage since before Chains of Promathia.

Either way, the pigeonholing in WoW doesn't exist for the most part. You have the ocassional spec that does better DPS but you're not a true detriment to your raid for not playing that spec if you don't want to. On the other hand, the pigeonholing was rampant in FFXI. That's what people like Kilta and Caird are trying to avoid, and with good reason.

[Sephr]

The underlying point in my saying that is that WoW's devs workes their asses off to take PvE balance to a point where people were no longer pigeonholed into specs. It's the difference between being told "lol heal or gtfo" as a Paladin during The Burning Crusade and being able to finally spec Retribution, grab a two-handed hammer and bash skulls in with holy might like I wanted to do since I rolled the class during vanilla.

That was my big gripe with Red Mage, because Blizz did with Paladin what I wanted SE to do with Red Mage since before Chains of Promathia.

Either way, the pigeonholing in WoW doesn't exist for the most part. You have the ocassional spec that does better DPS but you're not a true detriment to your raid for not playing that spec if you don't want to. On the other hand, the pigeonholing was rampant in FFXI. That's what people like Kilta and Caird are trying to avoid, and with good reason.

But that's because there's no class uniqueness anymore. It's a fairly hefty complaint of the playerbase that everyone feels the same. A fire mage and destruction warlock are very similar, with slightly different procs affecting rotation.
The reason FFXI and XIV can get away with pidgeonholing a bit more is because your character isnt limited by class, you're working towards one goal on one character. Being able to adjust to deal with the situation is part of the FF game's charm, and thats why the job system works so well in XI.

Having a singular class to play is all well and good, but it's never really been the way to be successful in FF MMOs, it seems.

[Shika]

they actually did say it will lower your options, and put you into a more specific role.

Ok, so you will be unable to be a vanilla Job in the sense that you will not be able to equip pretty much every ability that you can on every class. But, the trade-off is "compensation with access to exclusive actions". I would not see this personally as lowering my options within a party until I know what these exclusive actions are. Also, do we know if by opening up a job specialization then we will be locked out on the corresponding class to equipping actions as we do currently?

Having a specific role in party does not instantly lower your options; it all depends on what we get on those job specializations. I can't say right now whether it will be for better or worse- but hell I'd rather stay optimistic

lol in other words let's agree to disagree ^^ Most of this is speculation anyway.

[Jinko]

Oh its Cairdeas with another of his endless topics on weapons ...

[Duelle]

But that's because there's no class uniqueness anymore. It's a fairly hefty complaint of the playerbase that everyone feels the same. A fire mage and destruction warlock are very similar, with slightly different procs affecting rotation.

Correction, the complaints come mostly from people who've lost their "unique" buffs that no longer guaranteed them a raid spot. It'd be as if WHM, BLM and SMN suddenly got refresh. All the bandwagon Red Mages (that ruined things for the melee enthusiasts like myself) would cry their eyes out because their "unique" spell was given out.

As far as class uniqueness in the context of WoW, I had an Arms Warrior, A Ret Paladin and a Blood Death Knight during Wrath of the Lich King. All three could use two-handers and some even had similar buffs, but still felt different because despite it all, class flavor was preserved, even in the face of the so abhorred homogenization.

The reason FFXI and XIV can get away with pidgeonholing a bit more is because your character isnt limited by class, you're working towards one goal on one character. Being able to adjust to deal with the situation is part of the FF game's charm, and thats why the job system works so well in XI.

While entirely urinating on the people who identify their characters with one job/class more than any other. I am also one such person, as I look at my Taru in XI and think "Duelle the Red Mage", not "Duelle, the taru that can change to an underleveled PLD, a DRK that draws too much aggro when hitting things and has RDM leveled to 90". Call it lolRP if you want, but I doubt I'm alone in this.

Either way, pigeonholing is a bad thing. It should not be spoken of as if it is an inevitable thing, as that is clearly not the case.

[Sephr]

Either way, pigeonholing is a bad thing. It should not be spoken of as if it is an inevitable thing, as that is clearly not the case.

I'd rather every class brought their own individual abilities, but you're right; they should be able to balance them so no class is better.

That said, we havent had much class balancing yet so I'm not sure why it's the topic anyway? The point made was that it's pretty impossible to balance classes EXACTLY, and whilst in WoW it's true they've done quite a good job finally with cataclysm, there are still setups that can yield greater results with less input. But that IS inevitable, and as long as it's not too big a gap, it's not really a problem.