Summoner Revamp Ideas

[Darkstride]

I like Summoner, but my personal issues with it as a job are:

1. We are a DoT class/job and a Pet class/job, but the 2 have no interaction besides Contagion which is why Garuda is infinitely more useful than Ifrit.

2. Pets have no tactical value. They are relegated to basically being a second auto-attack.

I would suggest giving each of the Egis a DoT/Debuff consistent with their elemental alignment. Having these DoTs interact with Fester would also help with pet/Summoner interaction.

Ifrit - Burn: DoT w/Strength Debuff
Titan - Rasp: DoT w/Defense Debuff (I would say Vitality, but that only affects max HP).
Garuda - Choke: DoT w/Accuracy Debuff (or Evasion debuff)
Leviathan - Drown: DoT w/ Mind Debuff
Ramuh - Shock: DoT w/Dexterity Debuff
Shiva - Frost: DoT w/Intelligence Debuff
etc.

I also think that in order to make Ifrit competitive with Garuda, they need to change one of his skills to better match the power of Contagion. In the spirit of ARR's Summoner, I would suggest something that interacts with DoTs such as a Debuff on the mob that causes all DoT effects to have an increased Critical Hit rate for a set amount of time.

I think if/when further Egis are introduced, it would be nice to see them have some tactical advantages over one an other, while remaining balanced. I think it would be a terrible idea to have Leviathan have anything healing-related. We are a DPS job and we should stick to that. I'm quoting myself from the Leviathan-Egi speculation thread:

Leviathan would need something that competes with Contagion but does not overpower it.

Just for fun:

TAIL WHIP: deals x damage to target. Creates a small wave from the target that deals x (smaller value) damage to surrounding targets.

UNDERTOW: draws enemies within x range of target together and inflicts Heavy for x seconds. This would allow for easier use of AoE.

DROWN: Deals x damage over time and lowers enemy Strength. Just another DoT, since we are a DoT job.

EROSION: Applies a DoT for x seconds with potency that increases based on the number of active DoT effects. This would be like Fester, but a DoT rather than a direct hit, and would include the effect of Drown.

TIDAL WAVE: Deals AoE damage. Leaves behind a ground effect that continues to deal damage.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. ;-)

[Duelle]

this would allow the summoner to be more than just a DoT class, and be switching pets as the battle requires

The long cast times for Summon are a balancing factor because it limits what you bring to the fight barring emergencies (also in part to punish you for letting your pet die). To allow rapid pets swaps would require nerfing the strength of the pets in terms of offense AND utility (to FFXI avatar levels if not weaker). Which would in effect go against your wish to have more focus on the pets instead of working for it. There's a reason FFXIV's SMN is designed the way it is, and from a design perspective is much more solid than XI's.

The only real change SMN needs is Contagion/Shining Emerald being moved to the Summoner themselves and giving Garuda something else. This would end the "Garuda iz b3zt" nonsense. Buffing Ifrit's damage resistance and fixing/improving his pathing wouldn't hurt.

[PriyaJugulataris]

*post*

Did I say that the summon cast times were too long.... anywhere? For god's sake, the spell fits in a fester cooldown, it's perfectly fine. Swiftcast+Summon is also a thing that most people do. So that invalidating the whole rapid pet swap thing you're talking about, (and I did say that the summoner's damage would have to be rebalanced in said post) and I'm confused about this "loss in utility" you speak of as the pets have no utility outside of damage bot/tank currently. Especially with the FFXI comment, seeing as FFXI summoner's avatar had a great deal of Utility (Blood Pact:Wards and Astral Flows ARE WAY HIGHER UTILITY than what we have now). FFXIV's Summoner's design has already been linked to WoW's warlock numerous times in numerous threads, I don't think that it needs to be stated more, but yes, for FFXIV currently, the design is rather stable. But again. It's a DoT class. Not a Summon class.

I do however agree with your 2nd paragraph.

[Duelle]

So that invalidating the whole rapid pet swap thing you're talking about, (and I did say that the summoner's damage would have to be rebalanced in said post) and I'm confused about this "loss in utility" you speak of as the pets have no utility outside of damage bot/tank currently

It is obvious that if they were to change summons as you're asking they'd have to give egis utility. And my point still stands because not only would the egis have to have nerfed damage, but that utility would also need to be weak to be considered balanced because the core mechanic then becomes rapid pet swaps. It wouldn't be like in a single-player console FF where summons are either powerful buffs or powerful nukes with Amano Yoshitaka artwork instead of particle effects.

Especially with the FFXI comment, seeing as FFXI summoner's avatar had a great deal of Utility (Blood Pact:Wards and Astral Flows ARE WAY HIGHER UTILITY than what we have now).

Considering SCH + Make-spells-AoE strategem can outbuff a summoner in anything that is not Eclipse Howl, that's not saying much. Even before SCH came you couldn't really validate a SMN's utility. People didn't care about the job until the whole bit with Alexander and Perfect Defense was added (and how Zantetsuken made it easy to grind exp in abyssea before SMNs were tossed aside and replaced by Ukon WARs).

FFXIV's Summoner's design has already been linked to WoW's warlock numerous times in numerous threads, I don't think that it needs to be stated more, but yes, for FFXIV currently, the design is rather stable. But again. It's a DoT class.

SMN is a pet job with DoT as its main damage source, and that's not a bad thing. Specially keeping the limitations and outright bad design choices for XI's summoner in mind.

[Mimilu]

SMN is a pet job with DoT as its main damage source, and that's not a bad thing.

Isn't that a bad thing? I mean, shouldn't the pets be the focus of a pet job? The pets are basically positionable DoTs/turrets, with Contagion breaking up Garuda's pattern of Wind Blades, while Ifrit and Titan just run on autopilot.
I mean, I look at SCH vs SMN and while the SMN's control over their egi is pretty much just pressing Contagion or leaving the non-Garudas on auto, the SCH has far more encouragement to micromanage their fairy's Embraces and buffs. I know that both aren't the same, in terms of function, and I'm not saying SMN needs more utility or to be a DPS/Support like BRD, but I would like the egi to have more of a presence in their gameplay.

[PriyaJugulataris]

*post*

You do realize that given the post I made, they would most likely lower the summoner's DPS ability rather than the pet's right? Since for max DPS, you'd keep Garuda out because of the magic damage buff? Also, the core mechanic wouldn't be rapid pet swaps, because in the post that I made, there's no benefit for switching repeatedly. The core mechanic would simply be the summon for the situation. Oh, we have more physical DPS then magic DPS, I should use ifrit. Oh we need adds destroyed fast, better use garuda to buff the black mage! Oh, a healer died during titan ex and I'm questioning this healer's abilities! I should use Titan. Ifrit EX is about to use Hellfire! I should use Ramuh! Enrage mode activated! I should use Leviathan. Oh, I have a couple of seconds before a major move! I should use Shiva to debuff the enemy, swiftcast summon titan/ramuh based on the type of damage to mitigate the damage (possibly use levi but honestly probably won't need it, given the earlier two steps), and then after applying dots and festering, summon back my primary DPS pet.

Pre Wings of Goddess, Summoner buffs were still widely used, and even afterwards when everyone switched to Fenrir, we still had Alexander as you stated. Still contradicts your original post, seeing as you said that utility would be lowered to FFXI levels.

No, it's a DoT class. It's a DoT class with a pet, but it's still primarily a DoT class. The class's core mechanic revolves around DoT's (Aetherflow) thus my issue with it. A pet class focuses around having pets, as should a summoner focus on its summons. The class design is solid, and it's great DPS, and fun to play. Your last statement is fragmented so I don't know what to say to that.

[Pinworms]

I won't touch smn until the job becomes focused on the summons and not "dots". What's the purpose of even being a summoner when you just call 1 summon for the entire fight? It doesn't make sense to me at all. A summoner in my book should be constantly summoning different creatures/primals/sprites etc and doing their damage through the summons...not dots.

As for the egi - they look terribad, they look like what an elemental summoned sprite should look like. Not something that is the goto summon of the summoner job. Every FF game that has a summoner has bad ass summons...except this one, this one just has the bad.

[Duelle]

Pre Wings of Goddess, Summoner buffs were still widely used, and even afterwards when everyone switched to Fenrir, we still had Alexander as you stated. Still contradicts your original post, seeing as you said that utility would be lowered to FFXI levels.

Not really, since Alexander was stupidly OPd. I will admit that I toned down my own post and had to delete that part, because I did get very nasty in mentioning SMN's shortcomings.

Also, the core mechanic wouldn't be rapid pet swaps, because in the post that I made, there's no benefit for switching repeatedly.

Spreading utility between egis would still lead to rapid swaps.

No, it's a DoT class. It's a DoT class with a pet, but it's still primarily a DoT class. The class's core mechanic revolves around DoT's (Aetherflow) thus my issue with it. A pet class focuses around having pets, as should a summoner focus on its summons.

It has a pet, the pet scales with the master's stats and you have limited ways of upkeep for said pet. You could complain about the DPS spread between master and pet, but in the end it is still a pet class.

I'm not going to expect a modern pet class to have the buff servitor line or other pet-only abilities seen throughout the years in MMOs (not with the ability limit that is in place AND the restrictions from the armoury system). It simply isn't reasonable given the design philosophies the devs have taken up.

I know that both aren't the same, in terms of function, and I'm not saying SMN needs more utility or to be a DPS/Support like BRD, but I would like the egi to have more of a presence in their gameplay.

DPS is a lot more cut and dry than other styles of play. When you split healing potential between a master and pet, you're going to need a LOT of micro-management because your healing throughput can make or break a group. SMN doesn't have this to deal with seeing that egi utility is somewhat limited (you could probably make a case for Ifrit's stun or any of the AoE abilities the egi's possess being micromanaged), and as long as t3h peeplez f4ll d0wn within a reasonable time you're still doing your job as a DPS. Granted that the whole Sic/Obey thing is in dire need of improvements, but that's why this is more evident in SCH than SMN.

[MartaDemireux]

I hope that they add a stance "Evoker's Calling" (or something) which allows the SMN to support the party. Their damage and/or the egi's damage would be reduced in order to have the egi give off an aura similar to a BRD song. Perhaps this could vary depending on the egi. Straight buff egi's could have their HP drain and/or drain some of the SMN's MP while regenerative egi's could have their damage and/or the SMN's damage reduced.

In some instances in the past summoner could do both either by choice or by randomness. Like in FFIII it was random for the evoker and for the sage I believe but the Summoner would always be the attack. Or for FFIX you could change some summons based on what you had equipped. I think a stance would be the best way to implement this here.

Also with Bravely Default they added in the Summoner and the Conjurer. The Summoner gains summoning magic to deal AoE damage while the Conjurer gains summoning magic to buff the party.

An example for the stances for straight buffs would be (buffs that would deplete SMN MP and/or egi HP):

Ifrit: Raises Attack of nearby party members.
Garuda: Raises Magic Attack of nearby party members.
Titan: Raises Defenses of nearby party members.

This way all 3 would have some sort of use. If you have a mage heavy party you would want to use Garuda, if you have a melee heavy party you'd want to use Ifrit. If you were about to face a big attack you could pop out a Titan. I envision it only being worthwhile to buff the party with ATK/MATK if you have 3 or more total DPS as one type.

An example for the stances for regenerative buffs would be (buffs that would reduce SMN and/or egi DPS):

Leviathan: Regenerates nearby party members' HP over time.
Ramuh: Regernates nearby party members' TP over time.
Shiva: Regenerates nearby party members' MP over time.

These egi's could have just about any function at this point in time of course but could be the go-to egi's for when you're not in a party heavily comprised of one type of DPS. This assumes these 3 would function with the same 3 roles as the last 3 which is possible. So if you need/want Melee DPS but don't need to give the melee an ATK boost you could use Leviathan and use the HP regeneration in a pinch, if you need/want magical DPS but don't need to give the casters a MATK boost you could use Shiva and use the MP regeneration should they need it, if the DPS need some TP but you don't need an extra tank you could pop out Ramuh to restore some TP before he takes hate from the current tank (perhaps the stance could also give him an enmity reduction).

Another idea would be to swap out the egi's attacks (minus their auto attacks) for straight buffs similar to FFXI's buffs. Ifrit could get attack enhancing buffs and make its Radiant Shield be AoE or something. Garuda could get moves to increase magic attack and skill/spell speed buffs. Titan could get defense buffs or defense reduction debuffs.