Summoner Revamp Ideas

[Duelle]

this would allow the summoner to be more than just a DoT class, and be switching pets as the battle requires

The long cast times for Summon are a balancing factor because it limits what you bring to the fight barring emergencies (also in part to punish you for letting your pet die). To allow rapid pets swaps would require nerfing the strength of the pets in terms of offense AND utility (to FFXI avatar levels if not weaker). Which would in effect go against your wish to have more focus on the pets instead of working for it. There's a reason FFXIV's SMN is designed the way it is, and from a design perspective is much more solid than XI's.

The only real change SMN needs is Contagion/Shining Emerald being moved to the Summoner themselves and giving Garuda something else. This would end the "Garuda iz b3zt" nonsense. Buffing Ifrit's damage resistance and fixing/improving his pathing wouldn't hurt.

[PriyaJugulataris]

*post*

Did I say that the summon cast times were too long.... anywhere? For god's sake, the spell fits in a fester cooldown, it's perfectly fine. Swiftcast+Summon is also a thing that most people do. So that invalidating the whole rapid pet swap thing you're talking about, (and I did say that the summoner's damage would have to be rebalanced in said post) and I'm confused about this "loss in utility" you speak of as the pets have no utility outside of damage bot/tank currently. Especially with the FFXI comment, seeing as FFXI summoner's avatar had a great deal of Utility (Blood Pact:Wards and Astral Flows ARE WAY HIGHER UTILITY than what we have now). FFXIV's Summoner's design has already been linked to WoW's warlock numerous times in numerous threads, I don't think that it needs to be stated more, but yes, for FFXIV currently, the design is rather stable. But again. It's a DoT class. Not a Summon class.

I do however agree with your 2nd paragraph.

[Duelle]

So that invalidating the whole rapid pet swap thing you're talking about, (and I did say that the summoner's damage would have to be rebalanced in said post) and I'm confused about this "loss in utility" you speak of as the pets have no utility outside of damage bot/tank currently

It is obvious that if they were to change summons as you're asking they'd have to give egis utility. And my point still stands because not only would the egis have to have nerfed damage, but that utility would also need to be weak to be considered balanced because the core mechanic then becomes rapid pet swaps. It wouldn't be like in a single-player console FF where summons are either powerful buffs or powerful nukes with Amano Yoshitaka artwork instead of particle effects.

Especially with the FFXI comment, seeing as FFXI summoner's avatar had a great deal of Utility (Blood Pact:Wards and Astral Flows ARE WAY HIGHER UTILITY than what we have now).

Considering SCH + Make-spells-AoE strategem can outbuff a summoner in anything that is not Eclipse Howl, that's not saying much. Even before SCH came you couldn't really validate a SMN's utility. People didn't care about the job until the whole bit with Alexander and Perfect Defense was added (and how Zantetsuken made it easy to grind exp in abyssea before SMNs were tossed aside and replaced by Ukon WARs).

FFXIV's Summoner's design has already been linked to WoW's warlock numerous times in numerous threads, I don't think that it needs to be stated more, but yes, for FFXIV currently, the design is rather stable. But again. It's a DoT class.

SMN is a pet job with DoT as its main damage source, and that's not a bad thing. Specially keeping the limitations and outright bad design choices for XI's summoner in mind.

[Mimilu]

SMN is a pet job with DoT as its main damage source, and that's not a bad thing.

Isn't that a bad thing? I mean, shouldn't the pets be the focus of a pet job? The pets are basically positionable DoTs/turrets, with Contagion breaking up Garuda's pattern of Wind Blades, while Ifrit and Titan just run on autopilot.
I mean, I look at SCH vs SMN and while the SMN's control over their egi is pretty much just pressing Contagion or leaving the non-Garudas on auto, the SCH has far more encouragement to micromanage their fairy's Embraces and buffs. I know that both aren't the same, in terms of function, and I'm not saying SMN needs more utility or to be a DPS/Support like BRD, but I would like the egi to have more of a presence in their gameplay.

[PriyaJugulataris]

*post*

You do realize that given the post I made, they would most likely lower the summoner's DPS ability rather than the pet's right? Since for max DPS, you'd keep Garuda out because of the magic damage buff? Also, the core mechanic wouldn't be rapid pet swaps, because in the post that I made, there's no benefit for switching repeatedly. The core mechanic would simply be the summon for the situation. Oh, we have more physical DPS then magic DPS, I should use ifrit. Oh we need adds destroyed fast, better use garuda to buff the black mage! Oh, a healer died during titan ex and I'm questioning this healer's abilities! I should use Titan. Ifrit EX is about to use Hellfire! I should use Ramuh! Enrage mode activated! I should use Leviathan. Oh, I have a couple of seconds before a major move! I should use Shiva to debuff the enemy, swiftcast summon titan/ramuh based on the type of damage to mitigate the damage (possibly use levi but honestly probably won't need it, given the earlier two steps), and then after applying dots and festering, summon back my primary DPS pet.

Pre Wings of Goddess, Summoner buffs were still widely used, and even afterwards when everyone switched to Fenrir, we still had Alexander as you stated. Still contradicts your original post, seeing as you said that utility would be lowered to FFXI levels.

No, it's a DoT class. It's a DoT class with a pet, but it's still primarily a DoT class. The class's core mechanic revolves around DoT's (Aetherflow) thus my issue with it. A pet class focuses around having pets, as should a summoner focus on its summons. The class design is solid, and it's great DPS, and fun to play. Your last statement is fragmented so I don't know what to say to that.

[Duelle]

Pre Wings of Goddess, Summoner buffs were still widely used, and even afterwards when everyone switched to Fenrir, we still had Alexander as you stated. Still contradicts your original post, seeing as you said that utility would be lowered to FFXI levels.

Not really, since Alexander was stupidly OPd. I will admit that I toned down my own post and had to delete that part, because I did get very nasty in mentioning SMN's shortcomings.

Also, the core mechanic wouldn't be rapid pet swaps, because in the post that I made, there's no benefit for switching repeatedly.

Spreading utility between egis would still lead to rapid swaps.

No, it's a DoT class. It's a DoT class with a pet, but it's still primarily a DoT class. The class's core mechanic revolves around DoT's (Aetherflow) thus my issue with it. A pet class focuses around having pets, as should a summoner focus on its summons.

It has a pet, the pet scales with the master's stats and you have limited ways of upkeep for said pet. You could complain about the DPS spread between master and pet, but in the end it is still a pet class.

I'm not going to expect a modern pet class to have the buff servitor line or other pet-only abilities seen throughout the years in MMOs (not with the ability limit that is in place AND the restrictions from the armoury system). It simply isn't reasonable given the design philosophies the devs have taken up.

I know that both aren't the same, in terms of function, and I'm not saying SMN needs more utility or to be a DPS/Support like BRD, but I would like the egi to have more of a presence in their gameplay.

DPS is a lot more cut and dry than other styles of play. When you split healing potential between a master and pet, you're going to need a LOT of micro-management because your healing throughput can make or break a group. SMN doesn't have this to deal with seeing that egi utility is somewhat limited (you could probably make a case for Ifrit's stun or any of the AoE abilities the egi's possess being micromanaged), and as long as t3h peeplez f4ll d0wn within a reasonable time you're still doing your job as a DPS. Granted that the whole Sic/Obey thing is in dire need of improvements, but that's why this is more evident in SCH than SMN.