SMN DPS: Pushing it to the limit

[Ryuko]

It's hard to give good advice on improving dps for SMN without going into specific details for each individual bosses. The basics are stupid simple.

Macros are for lazy people. Lazy people don't top dps.

I agree about macros -- I use 0 macros, except for silence on bard to let people know I've used it and blah blah. Just have extra bars for stuff like SC, Res, etc.

The reason I insist on 'my way' of RS + Festers is because, like your argument with Miasma II, it is pretty negligible whether you cast RS dots before or after doing the two festers (it's not like fester damage is buffed because of dot damage... merely having the dots on is what counts)... and there are fights where you simply won't be able to stand still for a long time. It's less risky to use Festers first, cast buffed dots after. Yes, there are points where you can 'plan' for the timing of knowing you can get all your dots up before festering the first time... but not every player has the fights memorized, and sometimes there are surprises. Either way, the difference in damage is negligible at best -- I just think my way is safer for someone who doesn't have every fight 100% memorized. I didn't take kindly to some dude telling me it was 'horrible' when I was just trying to help someone else out under the assumption that they don't have every fight memorized.

[Seobit]

You can't compare clipping halfway duration dots to losing 0.2 seconds on animations that save you mp.

I hope you have the first 20 seconds memorized cause that's when you use an opening.

[xxalucard]

How nice of you to insult me in your response. Anyway, I know it seems logical to cast dots first, but I actually had someone parse it once...

I suppose it sort of depends on gear, though. My crit rate is 510 so the crazy high damage from the high chance of a RS crit fester is way greater than a normal RS dot will parse. So no, my way is not horrible. I implore you to try it and let me know your results, as gear will be a variable in this debate.

Sorry to say but your idea of when to use RS is flawed. You have more than enough time to get all the dots off + 2 festers before raging strikes is over. I personally play on a controller and it's not difficult to do.

Gear has nothing to do with it.

To the OP:

A basic high-damage opening rotation on a single target boss, assuming you have 3 stacks and another aetherflow ready to go, would be something like

(while running into melee range) Obey ~ Rouse --> Spur --> Enkindle then Raging Strikes --> Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio --> Fester ~ Contagion ~ Miasma II --> Energy Drain --> Swiftcast ~ Shadowflare --> Ruin II (Ruin II until fester is ready again) Fester ~ Ruin II ~ Aetherflow

You don't want to use normal ruin at all during RS, since it will give you less auto-attacks (which are also boosted by RS).

One DPS tip would be to remember to always use Garuda's Aerial Slash *while casting* in an AoE situation, because it can be done simultaneously and there is no reason to wait.
Another tip would be to use Garuda's Contagion *early* (before finishing your dots) so that right as you land Miasma II (or bio in an AoE situation) it triggers and begins the CD as early as possible.

[Ryuko]

It's not necessarily about having it memorized, but about not having to move while doing that opener. A lot of pug groups I see force you to stack up for the beginning of Titan extreme (despite the arena being huge at that point). If you place your pet and run in immediately, you will still have to move for landslide/weights while casting your opener spells, and as I said... your way, you only have a few seconds between your last fester and when RS ends... Now, if you really wanted to keep the extended duration on the buffed dots (which yes, technically would be more), another safer method would be to use your normal (non-buffed) Bio II > Miasma > Bio > RS > Fester > SF + Fillers... > Fester > re-up dots > Contagion. The dots that were added after the two festers and will still be buffed by RS, and the only loss would be about 10 seconds on your Contagion cooldown, which you likely won't use EXACTLY when it's ready in movement fights anyway, so the 10 second loss is not too big of a deal.

I'll be honest with you -- I lurk these forums a lot, and a lot of people tweak their rotations slightly compared to others and still pull off 300+ dps with their pet, even without 'best in slot' items... and they do things I and other summoners wouldn't necessarily agree with. There is not 'one way' to do something, or every single high-parsing summoner would do the exact same thing. What we're doing now is theory-crafting, and I'm not saying your idea is wrong... Rather, I am defending mine as not being wrong. But these are seriously just negligible preferences... as I have seen no difference in parses (according to people who actually parse me on fights; I don't parse). This is such a small thing to be arguing about when the point of the thread is to help the OP.

One specific piece of advice I forgot to mention is how to be effective at strong SMN dps on an add that you need to down ASAP (example: rocks and conflag). Make sure you have your dots on the main mob first, then Bane those the second the add pops... and fester on the add. Groups with REALLY good dps won't require you to do this, but more often than not you will be the lifesaver with the instant 1k+ hit.

Sorry to say but your idea of when to use RS is flawed. You have more than enough time to get all the dots off + 2 festers before raging strikes is over. I personally play on a controller and it's not difficult to do.

You have about 2-3 seconds if you wait to *see* Bio before Festering the first time (which I do because otherwise there is a chance you won't get the full damage bonus.. that's the reason I started using RS after Bio in the first place, to save time on the GCD). I play on mouse+keyboard... I don't know why playing on controller would make that harder? I never said it's impossible to pull off two RS festers, but I did say it's harder to pull off IF there is ever a time where you have to move while using it... And that won't always be at the beginning of the fight.

You're all telling me I'm wrong but I'm consistently told I'm outparsing everyone in my party at 300+ dps (plus pet). I don't even parse myself (I think parsers are inherently problematic) or I wouldn't make these claims. People just like to point it out to me. So no, I am not feeling like I am doing something wrong, or at least not something that alters dps by much. I'm going to stop replying to this thread though, because it's getting to the point where it's not helping OP. If OP seriously has damage issues... trust me it is not because of the negligible time at which I am suggesting to pop RS, but they are welcome to follow whoever's advice they like.

[Deelo]

You're all telling me I'm wrong but I'm consistently told I'm outparsing everyone in my party at 300+ dps (plus pet).

That just means a smn who uses RS+dots correctly will outparse you.

[Cons]

Ryuko why would you fester without dots?

Ive never done that, wondering what it actually does

[RxRai]

Ryuko why would you fester without dots?

Ive never done that, wondering what it actually does

Festering without dots does nothing. It's based on how many dots you have so whatever potency it is *0 dots is 0 damage.
You can find find funny stories of people in Garuda EX that accidentally Fester spiney and feel their heart skip a beat. More to the point, where did Ryuko say to Fester without dots?

[Ryuko]

I said I wouldn't post anymore but I didn't want anyone thinking I was advocating Fester without dots up. lol

Festering without dots does 0 damage. I forget if it actually says 'miss' or 0, though. I've accidentally done it before. I actually posted a story about it in the "DPS Facepalms" thread... I was in Titan extreme helping some people get the clear, and after hours of doing it... my brain started to melt. I got all my dots up on Titan waiting for jails to spawn (so I could Bane > Fester the add)... I thought I baned but didn't (d'oh) and festered the add. No one noticed it but I was severely disappointed in myself and decided it was time to call it a night (was 4am at that point I think).

I would never ever say to fester without dots, and I've never met a SMN who would. I did once meet a SMN who swore that Fester was a waste of MP (I figured out what he really meant was he thought it was 'impossible to sustain mp without using Energy Drain every single time'). He was doing less dps than the tank. I tried to give him friendly advice but the rest of the party berated him so he immediately went on the defensive. -_-;; I think if anyone thought I was saying to use Fester without dots, it may have been due to the whole argument about when to use RS. Either way, always make sure DoTs are up before Festering... and on that note, make sure your last dot is up. Bio takes a split second to 'appear'.

[Seobit]

It says "no effect". Or so I've been told! I'd never ever make that mistake!

...

[Azoryl]

How nice of you to insult me in your response. Anyway, I know it seems logical to cast dots first, but I actually had someone parse it once... Unless you can afford to stand absolutely still (that means no dodging whatsoever -- which is extremely rare in extreme modes, exception being garuda), 2x RS buffed Festers will tend to do more damage than one RS Fester + buffed dots. With your way, there is a chance you won't get two buffed festers -- If you time RS + dots + your first fester perfectly, you will literally only have 1-2 seconds to get off your second Fester before RS wears off, and this timing is extremely tight so I prefer to just use it for the two Festers immediately. Then, you can recast your buffed RS dots after (or between) the two Festers without worry, and you'll still get the buffed damage you wanted (you'll have approximately 10 seconds left after both festers to recast your dots with buffs). With my way, you have less of a chance of missing the two buffed Festers (and by that I mean if you have to move or stop at any point while casting the dots after RS, you will not be able to use two buffed festers).

I suppose it sort of depends on gear, though. My crit rate is 510 so the crazy high damage from the high chance of a RS crit fester is way greater than a normal RS dot will parse. So no, my way is not horrible. I implore you to try it and let me know your results, as gear will be a variable in this debate.

IF you dont have enough time to get your first 3 dots off in the beginning of a fight.. because if your trying to talk about an "rotation" other then the open sequence of a fight... your out of your mind. Once the fight, and mechanics start, you can toss your "rotations" out the window and it becomes a priority.

4 Dots running at RS level... with contagion... will outparse fester.. even 2 festers.