Can we please stop giving melee bad stigma?

[NoctisUmbra]

Also, you can go into Plugin Settings and set it so it only parses yourself, your party, alliance, or freely now. It'll help with those dummy parses where you don't want the zone showing up in your parses.

However, yeah. I'd love to see a 300+ parse in content from any BRD.

[AldricBranchais]

Also, you can go into Plugin Settings and set it so it only parses yourself, your party, alliance, or freely now. It'll help with those dummy parses where you don't want the zone showing up in your parses.

However, yeah. I'd love to see a 300+ parse in content from any BRD.

Is there a way to have the parse overlayed? It's only displaying the HP of the mob.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.

[xEscaflownex]

XD! I thought something was off. Was like.. how in the hell is my DRG out DPSing my MNK? But yeah, I'd like to see what you do on a dummy so I can see if I'm being a bad MNK.

BRD: http://i.imgur.com/fCweP37.png

BLM: http://i.imgur.com/4HMzsmr.png

SMN: http://i.imgur.com/Qx4iS5i.png

Tried to get the duration same as yours for all, they are all i84-86 with DL/CT pieces still

Also, you can go into Plugin Settings and set it so it only parses yourself, your party, alliance, or freely now. It'll help with those dummy parses where you don't want the zone showing up in your parses.

However, yeah. I'd love to see a 300+ parse in content from any BRD.

Well there it is, Uptime on dummy same as any encounter, only time not hitting target during a fight is when no one else is, ie, when they disappear for whatever attack. I took Misery's End off bar/out of macro so it wouldn't affect dummy parse (as it would be going off all the time on dummies almost dead), obviously singing ballad for whatever stretches of time would lower DPS a bit (not a flat 25% of grand total though, as it would never be up for an ENTIRE fight ha). Also, this is with far from BIS, with full i90/the actual pieces I want...obviously my damage would be much better.


******

ALSO, I haven't read all the posts, but I saw one or two that seem to somehow have misconstrued me as ever saying:

"OMG MELEE DPS CANNOT TOP DPS ON ANY FIGHT IN GAME DEFINITIVELY I KNOW THIS FOR CERTAIN KTHNXBAI"

I never said anything like this! I simply stated that I, personally, have never seen it happen in game, I've only commented on MY in game experiences. I never made any comment on theoretical "DPS Caps". I specifically stated that I believe it's entirely possible, and even more so, that it SHOULD be happening. I never once said I don't believe any of the people here who said they are awesome Melee DPS. In fact, I even said that's awesome if they do more damaged than Ranged, and that I just wish I could find some of these capable melee DPS people.

My only "stigma" against melee DPS is that (AGAIN IN MY EXPRIENCE) it just seems as if the player base of people able to play them to their potential is very small and far between. If some people shared detailed tips on how to push their Melee classes to their limits, and tomorrow every Melee DPS I encountered WTF PWNED me, I would be kind of sad, but also very happy! They require more skill to play, and have it tougher as far as mechanics, so I fully support that they should be outdoing ranged classes, I just wish more people I encounter were able to.

Also, all the people on the other side of the house, saying BRDs are weakest DPS, BLM/SMN sucks, etc etc, is this in reference to the "DPS caps" I've seen people mention? I know nothing about this, is there some official or definitive table or something that says, for example:

BRD MAX Possible DPS 300
BLM MAX Possible DPS 350
SMN MAX Possible DPS 350
DRG MAX Possible DPS 400
MNK MAX Possible DPS 450

If so, I've never seen it! So as far as all the people saying "Everyone knows BRD is weakest DPS, they can never come close to anyone else" ...all I've seen are people stating 300 sustained DPS as the mark to hit, and it's right up there ^, with subpar gear.

I feel like it takes pretty much zero effort to hit this DPS on BRD, so I'm not sure what other BRDs do, or rather don't do, that you don't see them come close to this often, BRD learning curve is pretty much nonexistent IMO compared to other jobs.

[AldricBranchais]

BRD: http://i.imgur.com/fCweP37.png

Snip.

Dat BRD tho.

[xEscaflownex]

Basically, we are all just commenting on our experiences.

I'm biased against Melee stacked groups because I don't see enough melee come close to 300 DPS.

You are biased agiasnt Ranged stacked groups because you don't see enough ranged come close to 300 DPS.

Essentially the same difference. All things considered, if you have people playing the jobs who can maximize their potential, any mix will do, its the poor players on each side (ranged and melee), and the unfortunate/generally lopsided proportions OF poor players on each side.

[NoctisUmbra]

Also, all the people on the other side of the house, saying BRDs are weakest DPS, BLM/SMN sucks, etc etc, is this in reference to the "DPS caps" I've seen people mention? I know nothing about this, is there some official or definitive table or something that says, for example:

BRD MAX Possible DPS 300
BLM MAX Possible DPS 350
SMN MAX Possible DPS 350
DRG MAX Possible DPS 400
MNK MAX Possible DPS 450

If so, I've never seen it! So as far as all the people saying "Everyone knows BRD is weakest DPS, they can never come close to anyone else" ...all I've seen are people stating 300 sustained DPS as the mark to hit, and it's right up there ^, with subpar gear.

I feel like it takes pretty much zero effort to hit this DPS on BRD, so I'm not sure what other BRDs do, or rather don't do, that you don't see them come close to this often, BRD learning curve is pretty much nonexistent IMO compared to other jobs.

BRD has a barely existent learning curve, is simple to play, and is barely inhibited by mechanics. Therefore it will perform very close to its cap (which is basically how much DPS you can possibly put out with full uptime and entirely optimal play on a dummy) in content. It only really gets hindered by things such as jails, bosses becoming invulnerable or disappearing, and any other thing that hinders basically any DPS. It is also the least hindered by mechanics that force dodging and movement, as it only loses out on auto attacks this way. So BRD DPS is typically consistent, both across content and across players.

BLM has a equal, if not higher, DPS cap than BRD in terms of single target, but it absolutely wrecks face in terms of AoE. If you need a grouped up bunch of things to melt, nothing does it better than a BLM. BLMs can parse in the mid 300s in content such as Turn 4 of Coil. It's weakness is content like Titan Extreme, where mobility is paramount. A BLM that is always moving isn't doing much DPS at all.

SMN has greater mobility than BLM as it has more offGCD or instant cast skills as well as a pet that is constantly doing damage and typically brushing off any AoE skills that would wreck a player. It also caps (coupled with pet DPS) in the same range as a BLM or BRD, but excels in multi-dotting. If there are multiple targets that it can put its DoTs on and have them tick away, then it will do greater DPS. It also does rather well in typical clustered AoE situations, but not as good as a BLM.

DRG and MNK are more or less balanced now. They both cap out around high 300s to 400 on a dummy. MNK has a bit of an edge in terms of where its cap lies, but comes at a greater risk due to the way it needs to keep its stacks up. DRG on the other hand is more straightforward, and also applies a piercing debuff that benefits BRDs in the party, which can be considered their effective DPS addition to their party in a way. The thing is, playing a melee comes at an overall greater risk and thus the performance of a melee DPS is dependent very much on prior experience in given content and the general ability to dodge more mechanics.

Overall, melee are the toughest to play optimally and therefore have the steepest learning curve. This leads to most melee being inadequate in DPS during content. Depending on whether DRG or MNK, they each have their reasons and common mistakes.



Well... that was a long read but I figured I'd break it down for anyone who may be interested in reading this wall of text. It's unfortunate that you haven't come cross any melee that can outperform you, but it's also not that surprising. Most competent melees are already part of competent FCs that clear content together and typically don't bother with PF groups that prefer to exclude them anyway.


For example, here's a recent Turn 5 parse with me on MNK: http://goo.gl/eFvJAt

[Ricdeau]

ALSO, I haven't read all the posts, but I saw one or two that seem to somehow have misconstrued me as ever saying:

"OMG MELEE DPS CANNOT TOP DPS ON ANY FIGHT IN GAME DEFINITIVELY I KNOW THIS FOR CERTAIN KTHNXBAI"

I never said anything like this! I simply stated that I, personally, have never seen it happen in game, I've only commented on MY in game experiences. I never made any comment on theoretical "DPS Caps". I specifically stated that I believe it's entirely possible, and even more so, that it SHOULD be happening. I never once said I don't believe any of the people here who said they are awesome Melee DPS. In fact, I even said that's awesome if they do more damaged than Ranged, and that I just wish I could find some of these capable melee DPS people.

I hate to play devils advocate here, but you did say the following:

I'm also not saying that good melee DPS cant do decent damage, but being top? not in any fight currently in game.

Since this is text over the internet many will take what was typed at face value. Your subsequent posts are a little more open with the wording, but in that particular instance you did day it to a degree. With that in mind I also tried to word my own posts so that I wasn't trying to sound like ranged couldn't be competitive next to melee so if I came off as though ranged DPS is largely inferior it was not intended. I was just defending that in most content in the game melee DPS can do exceptionally well.

Anyway, since we're throwing around some dummy parses I did one real quick for reference next to what the others have thrown up. I am far from BiS due to really poor luck in Coil. Been in there for a few months and have seen hardly any monk loot. Unfortunately I don't save my raid parses. I just analyze them at the end of the raid and move on.

http://i.imgur.com/HKqx7x1.png

[Samsta]

BRD: http://i.imgur.com/fCweP37.png

BLM: http://i.imgur.com/4HMzsmr.png

SMN: http://i.imgur.com/Qx4iS5i.png

I find it really hard to believe that with right rotation and equal gear brd can dish out more dps than summoner on a single target, as much as it makes me sound like a jerk you providing those screenshots don't really proof anything as we don't know how you played and what gear you really have, or do your parsers even tell the truth.

[NoctisUmbra]

I find it really hard to believe that with right rotation and equal gear brd can dish out more dps than summoner on a single target, as much as it makes me sound like a jerk you providing those screenshots don't really proof anything as we don't know how you played and what gear you really have, or do your parsers even tell the truth.

I think it's safe to ay there is a disparity between his gear for the 3 jobs. That being said, while SMN I'm sure will perform better on a dummy parse than a BRD, it won't be by much.

[xEscaflownex]

I find it really hard to believe that with right rotation and equal gear brd can dish out more dps than summoner on a single target, as much as it makes me sound like a jerk you providing those screenshots don't really proof anything as we don't know how you played and what gear you really have, or do your parsers even tell the truth.

A. You do realize there's quite a bit of RNG where BLM single target DPS is concerned, especially over the course of just a few minutes, bad luck with thunder cloud/fire starter procs = low wend, awesome luck = high end, I didn't get many during that parse lol, feel free to put up some BLM parses.

(I thought you said BLM in your post ha, but as far as SMN...Pretty sure I'm not screwing up the whole 3 dots I have to keep up on the target, ruins, festers, contagion, or pet Buffs (Rouse/Spur), ACT was reading flaming arrow, but not shadow flare for some reason, so that could account for a bit) but again feel free to go bang on something for a similar duration and see what you get.

B. All 3 are i86

BRD: EX Bow, Allagan Head, CT Chest, AF2 Hands, AF2 Belt, DL Legs, DL Boots, AF2 Neck, AF2 Earrings, Ifrit Wrist, Garuda Ring, AF2 Ring

BLM: Zenith Staff (have EX as well but parse lower with it), AF2 Head, AF2 Body, DL Hands, Allagan Legs, DL Feet, Allagan Neck, Allagan Earrings, Allagan Wrist, Allagan Ring, AF2 Ring

SMN: Allagan Book, AF2 Head, CT Body, DL Hands, Allagan Pants, DL Boots, AF2 Neck, Allagan Earrings, AF2 Wrist, Garuda Ring, AF2 Ring

As far as rotations, I feel pretty competent on all (I do play BRD the most though), but Im not claiming to be an expert, feel free to post your own numbers and show me your 1337 rotation

**I've done all EX and Cleared T5 on each of these jobs, and never been on the low end of damage in any group, so while I could simply not be the best at them, I find it hard to believe I'm screwing up the use of the few BLM and SMN abilities in the extreme...

***(And even NoctisUmbra's parse showed his BLM lower than the 2 BRDs, so, take that as you will, it happens sometimes obviously)


C. I've always used app in the past, I switched to ACT as noctis required, if anything, it showed my DPS going up lol, apparently FFXIVAPP was under-reporting, also, as far as Im aware its pretty much download and go, I changed like 2 settings (turn off all but allies, dot clipping detection turned ON) So...I'm not sure how I could make it...lie??? But sure, I suppose its possible. But then, who knows if your parsers even tell the truth either?

I wasn't really trying to prove anything, Aldric asked me to do dummies in comparison to his, so I did, the only point I really made out of that was Noctis saying BRD couldn't hit 300 dps when it can easy.

I'll save T5 tomorrow night as Noctis requested, awesome job on DMG, but those disparities seem weird to me ha, I single BRD in my group, so Im singing all the songs, not sure how BOTH of yours are so low/far behind you unless they had bad rng with being in conflag/stunned by dreadknights a lot, with two BRD I would expect a strong one and a Weak one (If one doing the brunt of Ballad and the other doing none at all) or Both being pretty equal (if alternating it. ). I've also never had less than a 30% crit rate on T5, so I don't know how theirs are below 20%, and I don't know how your BLM is so far behind you either.

The only similar case Ive seen to this was my first few T5 clears as SMN, back when I had 3 less competent DPS in my group, at the end my SMN would be 40-60k ahead of the next highest. Obviously mob only has so much HP, only so much dmg can be done to it, if your other DPS are lacking, you pretty much end up carrying them/getting a larger piece of that pie.

I haven't had this issue since getting "better" DPS in my group, where we all end within 10-15k~ of each other (assuming one person doesn't get screwed with every conflag and DK stun).

So IMO the 50-60k disparity between you are your 2 BRD/BLM is more an issue of them not playing their classes to their max vs DRG being OP