Is anyone else bothered by the lack of incentive for mediocre players to improve?

[Miburo]

Nope.

If I bench 1 ton and someone uses a crane to lift 1 ton that doesn't "degrade my sense of accomplishment" at all. In any way. Same concept applies here.

And besides, it's a video game with a 2.5 second GCD where you fight scripted AI bosses. You're already setting the bar extremely low if you're going to use this game to boost your self-esteem. Stop comparing yourself to others and just play the game, ffs. This stuff is embarrassing.

[Yenn]

Nope.

If I bench 1 ton and someone uses a crane to lift 1 ton that doesn't "degrade my sense of accomplishment" at all. In any way. Same concept applies here.

And besides, it's a video game with a 2.5 second GCD where you fight scripted AI bosses. You're already setting the bar extremely low if you're going to use this game to boost your self-esteem. Stop comparing yourself to others and just play the game, ffs. This stuff is embarrassing.

Except this makes zero sense.
A better analogy would be you bench one ton and get a trophy for it, and then someone uses a crane to lift it and gets the same trophy.
The fact that the person with the crane was granted the same reward that you worked hard for, without putting in any effort, degrades the work you put towards the goal.

Yes, it's a video game with a 2.5 second GCD where you fight scripted AI bosses and 95% of players are failing at it and not improving at all. This is the entire problem.
I don't even want to guess at what percentage of players have downed Twintania, which became a trivial encounter after the Twister fixes.

And this is where someone comes in with 'hurrdurr the person with the crane did it smarter plz giv me free loot to help wipe on titan hm'

[Miburo]

Except this makes zero sense.
A better analogy would be you bench one ton and get a trophy for it, and then someone uses a crane to lift it and gets the same trophy.
The fact that the person with the crane was granted the same reward that you worked hard for, without putting in any effort, degrades the work you put towards the goal.

Yes, it's a video game with a 2.5 second GCD where you fight scripted AI bosses where 95% of players are failing at it and not improving at all. This is the entire problem.
I don't even want to guess at what percentage of players have downed Twintania, which became a trivial encounter after the Twister fixes.

And this is where someone comes in with 'hurrdurr the person with the crane did it smarter plz giv me free loot to help wipe on titan hm'

Yeah, and my accomplishment still wouldn't be diminished in any way because someone got the same trophy. If I bench 2000 lbs then I did something awesome. I'm still going to feel pretty awesome, even if someone gets the same dumb trophy. I still accomplished that feat. I'm still a hulk level beast. That is why I feel good. Not because of the trophy I get afterward.

If you're playing this game so you can get your dumb trophy (video game clothing for your video game cat man...) and feel like a special snowflake afterward, then that's embarrassing. And that is exactly what this thread is about. You're complaining because you can't be special because people you feel are below you are able to get the same dumb trophies as you. Come on, man.

Like I said, don't worry about what other people have. If you are able to do things with lower ilvls and are good at the game, then why not just be proud of your own accomplishments? You did that stuff the hard way, or whatever, feel good about it. It doesn't matter at all if someone else has the same neato shorts or pretty necklace or whatever that you got from the same fight. Even if he did it the super easy way and stinks at the game or whatever. What really matters to you? Your accomplishments or the dumb gear you get? If it's your accomplishments then what other people have or do doesn't matter. If it's the dumb video game gear then...that's sad, bro.

[RocketUnderwear]

Except this makes zero sense.
A better analogy would be you bench one ton and get a trophy for it, and then someone uses a crane to lift it and gets the same trophy.
The fact that the person with the crane was granted the same reward that you worked hard for, without putting in any effort, degrades the work you put towards the goal.

It is obvious that you have never operated a crane before. Have you considered what it takes to do it right? Have you considered what minimum angle can the boom be at to lift that load? Can you identified if the crane intended to do the lifting is rated for that weight? Is the ground stable? Is the crane braced properly? I could go on but I'm sure you get a point.

You're all missing the point, which is that giving out free loot to bad players makes it impossible to identify skilled players, as you can in other games.

Incorrect. I always assume that the pugs I'm running with are complete n00bs and need training wheels on a tricycle. With this approach I have never been disappointed by a complete fail.

[TouchandFeel]

I agree that it would be nice if the highest tier of gear was only available by "earning it" through completing the highest tier of content, for example all the allagan gear being ilvl95. Not a huge difference, but enough to make those that want to be on the bleeding edge to be able to set themselves apart.

Asides from that, I think the tome gear buying system is fine.

[Samsta]

Nope.

If I bench 1 ton and someone uses a crane to lift 1 ton that doesn't "degrade my sense of accomplishment" at all. In any way. Same concept applies here.

And besides, it's a video game with a 2.5 second GCD where you fight scripted AI bosses. You're already setting the bar extremely low if you're going to use this game to boost your self-esteem. Stop comparing yourself to others and just play the game, ffs. This stuff is embarrassing.

I totally agree with you, why would you give a rat's ass how other players obtain their gear, if you have to boost your self-esteem by being "good" in a game I have bad news for you.

[illuminapanic]

Nope.

If I bench 1 ton and someone uses a crane to lift 1 ton that doesn't "degrade my sense of accomplishment" at all. In any way. Same concept applies here.

And besides, it's a video game with a 2.5 second GCD where you fight scripted AI bosses. You're already setting the bar extremely low if you're going to use this game to boost your self-esteem. Stop comparing yourself to others and just play the game, ffs. This stuff is embarrassing.

This is a bad comparison. Because this is a video game, EVERYONE is able to reach maximum performance on their character. It's your capabilities irl that sets your character back, being lack of focus, lack of learning, or whatever. So a better comparison would be that "If I benched 1 ton and got a reward but then they lowered the requirements so another person benched 1/2 a ton and got the same reward." This is how the game operates, it nerfs dungeons so that players, who are personally unable to complete a dungeon, are now able to be on par with the people who are capable.

While I don't agree with the op about players getting loot, since they do add more content for skilled players, I do agree that there is no incentive for unskilled players to improve. If content is too hard for you, just wait a few months and then it'll be easy for you. This, in my opinion, promotes laziness. It's like our education requirement being lowered because there are less degrees being awarded in our country compared to other countries. It doesn't give people incentive to study more or spend more time on their homework and spend anymore time on any school topic when our education requirements are lowered so more people will pass.

Honestly, I don't even enter any party finders or duty finders expecting to win because of all the carries. It's sad though seeing everything in party finder being i80+ when a good 90% of the players will not even perform what their ilvl requirement is. Heck, I do more dps on my i74 brd than i90 people.

Do I care about other people's accomplishments? Not at all. I do care about other people doing their part in the dungeon though because when content requires 8 people and only 2 are doing what they are suppose to, it's a loss.

[Miburo]

This is a bad comparison. Because this is a video game, EVERYONE is able to reach maximum performance on their character. It's your capabilities irl that sets your character back, being lack of focus, lack of learning, or whatever. So a better comparison would be that "If I benched 1 ton and got a reward but then they lowered the requirements so another person benched 1/2 a ton and got the same reward." This is how the game operates, it nerfs dungeons so that players, who are personally unable to complete a dungeon, are now able to be on par with the people who are capable.

My analogy is fine. The point was that people taking what is perceived to be easier route to achieve the same reward doesn't have any bearing on my own personal achievement. You're also addressing something slightly different than what the OP was addressing there. Though, the same reasoning still applies. Even if the rewards are the same, the accomplishments aren't. If the accomplishment is what matters to me, then my accomplishment is still something I can be proud of. Someone getting the same reward for a lesser accomplishment is irrelevant, unless you care more about being a special snowflake by having rare video game clothing than the feats you've accomplished.

And who cares if people "don't have an incentive to improve"? It's BS anyway because there still is an incentive, that being clearing the newest most difficult encounters. But if people are content with waiting months to do something, then there isn't anything at all wrong with that. Odin forbid people have different goals in a video game, right? It's not like making gear even more difficult to get would make people who obviously don't care about getting gear work harder at getting it...


Edit: And dudes above are also right. Especially in this game. There is an armory system where I can gear up an alt in full allagan and EM primal drops that I have no clue how to play using my main. It doesn't matter how hard you make obtaining that gear, it's entirely possible I can still get gear for a job I blow at. Unless you also want to further nerf or get rid of the armory system too, despite it being arguably one of the most redeeming qualities of the game. It's also entirely possible to be good at some encounters, but not others. I know people that can one-shot every turn in coil, yet the blow hard at titan. Oh, and don't forget RNG drops making it possible to clear every turn of coil weekly for months and never see drops for your class, so even if you're the best player ever your gear wouldn't show it. Or people could be awesome at multiple classes, but because of weekly lockouts and myth caps they have no way of gearing up all those classes with the best gear. Way too many variables to ever be able to just look at a guy and tell if he's going to be good or not that have nothing to do with ease of acquiring gear.

[illuminapanic]

My analogy is fine. The point was that people taking what is perceived to be easier route to achieve the same reward doesn't have any bearing on my own personal achievement. You're also addressing something slightly different than what the OP was addressing there. Though, the same reasoning still applies. Even if the rewards are the same, the accomplishments aren't. If the accomplishment is what matters to me, then my accomplishment is still something I can be proud of. Someone getting the same reward for a lesser accomplishment is irrelevant, unless you care more about being a special snowflake by having rare video game clothing than the feats you've accomplished.

And who cares if people "don't have an incentive to improve"? It's BS anyway because there still is an incentive, that being clearing the newest most difficult encounters. But if people are content with waiting months to do something, then there isn't anything at all wrong with that. Odin forbid people have different goals in a video game, right? It's not like making gear even more difficult to get would make people who obviously don't care about getting gear work harder at getting it...


Edit: And dudes above are also right. Especially in this game. There is an armory system where I can gear up an alt in full allagan and EM primal drops that I have no clue how to play using my main. It doesn't matter how hard you make obtaining that gear, it's entirely possible I can still get gear for a job I blow at. Unless you also want to further nerf or get rid of the armory system too, despite it being arguably one of the most redeeming qualities of the game. It's also entirely possible to be good at some encounters, but not others. I know people that can one-shot every turn in coil, yet the blow hard at titan. Oh, and don't forget RNG drops making it possible to clear every turn of coil weekly for months and never see drops for your class, so even if you're the best player ever your gear wouldn't show it. Or people could be awesome at multiple classes, but because of weekly lockouts and myth caps they have no way of gearing up all those classes with the best gear. Way too many variables to ever be able to just look at a guy and tell if he's going to be good or not that have nothing to do with ease of acquiring gear.

If you read my post fully, I can quote in my post where I mentioned that I do not care about people getting loot and only caring that people don't take the time to get better at dungeons or at their class. And there is no incentive to clear new content if you already refused to clear old content when it was buffed. Why try to get better at new content when it will just be nerfed to be easy mode for you? All new content, as the interviews have already stated, will be just as hard. Sure, maybe people will try them just because they are released but if its too hard for them, they will give up and just wait until the nerf.

I don't know if it's just this game or the MMO community in general (never seriously played WoW. Played a lot of Ragnarok Online, though! Man, that game was awesome...), but this weird mentality is being spawned here that I've never seen anywhere else.

"Lack of incentive" to improve?
"Wasting everyone's time?"
"Responsibility?"

What is this? High school? College? A job? It's... a game. And I don't mean that in the "It's just a game, go outside, dude" kind of way. I mean it in a...

-You have no responsibility to the community, whether teaching or learning
-You're deciding what to do with your time, whether you can afford to play this game or not
-If you don't play today, you will be at the same place tomorrow
-Most importantly, you play this game knowing of all of these conditions

...kind of way.


Are MMOs making us forget or ignore how to interact with other humans, despite how hard many of us have fought in video games' defense against that argument?

See the thing is, this is an MMO. You can't progress anywhere in this game without other people. Your train of thought seems selfish to me and sounds like the people who say "I pay for my sub so I do whatever I want." Well if that was the case, then don't shout for groups to help you, don't use party finders, and don't use dungeon finders. With the exclusion of overgeared players carrying others, EVERYBODY needs to do their part while doing 4/8/24 man content. This is why the fail rate for dungeon finder's is at 75% or maybe even higher for the common dungeons people are complaining about. People que into them expecting to be carried since they don't take the time to play their class efficiently to help the other people that are there. And if the mentality was "Well I don't have a responsibility for others", then no one would even tell you what you are doing wrong and thus leads to failure. Why even have these features at all if everyone just thinks of themselves. They have console games for solo play that you can pay for.

Watching videos and reading strategies only gets anyone so far. People actually have to do it themselves to really get an eye for it and gain experience. Knowing what to do, and actually doing it are completely different things. Look at the olympics, how many people do you see there that fail? Gymnasts and Figure Skaters are easy to pick on here. How many times have we seen a skater fall? a gymnast completely miss a vault? Plenty, and they sure as hell know what to do.

Except, they made it to the Olympics because they are skilled at what they do. Forgive me if I'm wrong, since I don't follow the Olympics much but I think you have to be trials and judges to be in the Olympics? It isn't a "I think I'm good enough so I will be in the Olympics" type of deal. If it is then I'm mistaken.

Regardless, in the same thought, yes we all can make mistakes and even the most skilled players in video games can and will make mistakes. The point is not that people make these mistakes but it's that some people choose not to learn from theirs, choose not to improve, or choose not to take advice from others. It cripples the community.

[Miburo]

If you read my post fully, I can quote in my post where I mentioned that I do not care about people getting loot and only caring that people don't take the time to get better at dungeons or at their class. And there is no incentive to clear new content if you already refused to clear old content when it was buffed. Why try to get better at new content when it will just be nerfed to be easy mode for you? All new content, as the interviews have already stated, will be just as hard. Sure, maybe people will try them just because they are released but if its too hard for them, they will give up and just wait until the nerf.

Already addressed this. There is an incentive to improve for people with the goal of beating new content. For the people that don't care about that there wouldn't be anything you could do to make them care. Which is perfectly fine. The game isn't all about that. Some people play to roleplay or just enjoy the social aspect or whatever. There is no logical reason to care if people want to challenge the most difficult content or improve their combat skills to do so. As has been posted multiple times in this thread by multiple people, stop worrying so much about what other people are doing ffs.

Goddamn, post limit for this forum is obnoxious, lol.