Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[Zantetsuken]

If you boiled every FFXI vs FFXIV complaint down to it's essence, the biggest contrast is ARR's lack of Meaningful Choices


Specifically:

There are no meaningful choices in Gear: All gear has effectively, a single stat: iLvl

There are no meaningful choices in Combat: Endgame battles are tests of memorization, not decision making. Gear check, memorize the boss's patterns, memorize your rotations, and win. (Thornmarch appears to be the closest thing to an exception to this)

There are no meaningful choices in regards to Danger/Difficulty: The game is on guard-rails and everything is ultra safe and streamlined. Sit around in the open world and queue up for the content grind in order to bump up your iLvl to the current patch's cap. Furthermore, KO/Death penalties are meaningless as well.. If the battle isn't performed exactly right, just wipe, and try it again until: A) Win, or B) players get tired of trying and quit.

There are no meaningful choices in the Job system: You have set optimal rotations and scripted combos to perform with a few situational cooldowns. Your cross-class skills are so tightly limited that they might as well be auto-slotted.

Sadly, the only avenues in FFXIV where choices COULD mean something are the Class/Armory system and the Materia system. However, both systems are overly limited in their scope, and have been effectively shut out of endgame due to the power creep of dungeons as well as the power creep of gear drops for Jobs.


**Sidenote** FFXIII was widely panned for being an RPG-on-rails, Though less obvious at first glance, FFXIV actually suffers from the same issue... Thankfully, ARR's problems could all be changed within a patch or two. I sincerely hope the devs remedy these issues, because FFXIV has many, many good things going for it, and as fan of the series since FF1 (nes), I'd much rather see FFXIV thrive and flourish, than to watch it dwindle and die out due to disenchanted and unengaged players.

[Worm]

Zantetsuken after seeing some FFXI gameplay of a person randomly changing outfits for every attack, I'd be really interested in hearing how that combat had so much more decision making and less rotation and memorization than FFXIV's does right now.

You're being pretty hyperbolic about gear, there are choices between gear that has equal ilvl for example. :P That is not a problem materia can really fix either.

Danger/Difficulty, are you sure you're not just saying you don't want an instanced game? Because there are a lot of implications of that. I'm sorry to say but when you have an instanced game you have to ease down the difficulty of the overworld. Danger gets pushed into dungeons because they're the focus. Though don't take idiosyncrasies of the non-instanced system and go "why can't we have this in this game" well we can't because it was something that naturally happened by having the world not be instanced. In having the world be instanced the nasty monsters are generally ... in instances. I guess you could just make the whole over world into a group affair, but again just not very popular in this market.

Eh blaming the combo system for rotations is a bit silly. Rotations are a direct result of people putting a lot more thought into these games, I actually thought the combo system wasn't so bad since it kind of gives you an idea of your rotation early on so you can actually learn it rather than getting into a raid and have someone say "why aren't you filling empty GCDs with X". I'm not a huge fan of GCD locked rotations but I was pretty happy with my monk's.

I don't know how you think what you wrote here could be changed with a patch or two like let's get real.
Hypothetical patch
1) All stats are redone ... amount of stats possibly doubled, all bosses now require resist gear, insert meaningful choice that everyone always picks, insert meaningful choice that everyone always picks, insert meaningful choice that everyone always picks, and done
2) Make all boss patterns random? I honestly don't know. I'm looking forward to some concrete examples of FFXI boss decision making and it better not be something like "I decided to use this set of gear before I cast that spell"
3) Every overworld mob is twice (three times) as strong, they're all aggro, and monster hunting parties now spawn to muder anyone who dare AFK.
4) I don't necessarily disagree here but this would be something that will improve over time when new classes are added. Did you have a lot of hard choices after launch in FFXI? So I guess to fix this we just add more jobs ... like right now?

[mindful]

I think one of the things FFXIV is missing that FFXI use to have(before seekers and some will say abyssea, but aby was fun and move the pace faster and a lot of that gear used to take months to get.) was the feeling that you accomplish something great like a piece of gear that would take months to years to get for the above avg to the newer players, and yet you were not feeling like you were left in the dust when working on the gear. Like the first time you got a piece from dyna after years of trying to get the thief hands, before the abyssea content. You can never please the Elite style of players though.

[Zantetsuken]

snip

On the matter of gear-swapping, that was one of FFXI's flawed mechanics (from an immersion standpoint.. it was just silly), I was relieved that it was not an option in FFXIV 1.0-1.23.
And speaking of hyperbole.. you seem to run off to extreme lengths with your interpretations of my points. ("EVERY overworld mob... ALL aggro... murder anyone... etc. etc.".)



That aside, here is how I'd fix the direction (and economy) in a few patches:

• Raise the class level cap to 60 over the next 3 patches. Announce that the cap will not increase again until after 2016.
• Set the experience curve from 50-60 to take at least 10x more time and effort than than 1-50. Put very difficult cap quests (genkai) in place for lvl 50 and 55.
• re-define current Lvl gear to actual Lvl [Lvl50:iLvl150] = Lvl51 | Use something like 'star levels' to differentiate future gear power of the same lvl: ie. lvl50☆☆☆, lvl53☆, lvl60☆☆, etc..
• Introduce branching horizontal gear progression beginning at Lvl 55 - give players new types of gear to experiment with and debate over.
• Introduce new Materia, Gear and Food that enhances some traits and abilities, but in exchange, has negative effects on other stats, traits or abilities.
• Implement a 'Player-Created crafting Leve' system in each DoH guild. Players could create their own Leves by submitting mats (even U/U mats) to a NPC/Bulletin Board, where Members of the guild could accept the leve and craft the item for the other player in exchange for a reward and exp. (the initiating player would buy "insurance" to cover the mats in case of a failed synth)
• Introduce ultra rare RNG (U/U) drops from dungeons/FATES/etc of lvl55~60 gear each with unique attributes that cannot be obtained in any other way. These don't have to be the most powerful, but they should be useful and interesting prestige items; Dungeons/Primals/Raids/FATEs could drop special rare U/U crafting materials as well (see previous point on crafting)
• Introduce 4-5 new Class-Exclusive abilities for each class, and at least 2 of them should be usable cross-class
• Introduce (and/or modify) recipes from iLvl30 - iLvl90 that are meldable with higher stat caps, but are only Class-Exclusive (that is, Jobs cannot equip them).
• Add Class AF gear -- Craftable but it should require special U/U mats from dungeons as well as Tomestone purchased items. Like DoH/DoL AF, it should be meldable. Also, it should look more 'realistic' and less flashy than Job AF. Something along the lines of:
  
• Storyline boss battles should use defined and more obvious attack patterns, but all endgame bosses should use mostly randomly or AI triggered abilities, which in turn are limited by internal cool-downs. These should be properly telegraphed at normal difficulties, but more subtly done at higher (extreme) modes.

I think one of the things FFXIV is missing that FFXI use to have(before seekers and some will say abyssea, but aby was fun and move the pace faster and a lot of that gear used to take months to get.) was the feeling that you accomplish something great like a piece of gear that would take months to years to get for the above avg to the newer players, and yet you were not felt you were like left in the dust. Like the first time you got a piece from dyna after years of trying to get the thief hands, before the abyssea content. You can never please the Elite style of players though.

Oddly enough, my last addition is:

• Put in place an OPTIONAL super powerful lvl60 weapon/gear quest that takes a minimum of 6 months to complete for the most dedicated of hardcores - and an average of 18-20 months to complete for mid-core players. - Most of it should either be soloable or should piggyback on other content, but it should require expertise and dedication in ALL aspects of ARR gameplay (ie. a rare item from each of the game's dungeons, FATEs, primals, raids, etc. ultra-rare gathering items, and hard-to-make crafted items, drops from treasure hunts, Beastmen quest items, special Guildleve rewards, 100k GC item, etc, etc, etc.. -- Have it all culminate in an epic battle vs a new boss that must be solo'd [eg Maat] to complete.)

Basically, there needs to be an far-fetched near-impossible goal for players to strive towards if they are willing to work their asses off for it, and others can applaud and marvel if they see someone else achieve it. (Relic weapons in FFXI were like this). ** I think something like this will go far in taking some of the elitism out of the game as well. It's kind of hard to be elitist when your gear is obviously not the absolute best, or conversely when you're too busy working your ass off trying to obtain it.

[Doo]

On the matter of gear-swapping, that was one of FFXI's flawed mechanics (from an immersion standpoint.. it was just silly), I was relieved that it was not an option in FFXIV 1.0-1.23.

I don't see it as a flaw. I love min/maxing and it made many pieces of gear useful for a long time. Squeezing out every bit of damage, popping on a sam af helmet for that extra meditate tp, etc. The flaw was hit on inventory space and the blinking caused issues for getting targeted

[Kiara]

That aside, here is how I'd fix the direction (and economy) in a few patches:

• Raise the class level cap to 60 over the next 3 patches. Announce that the cap will not increase again until after 2016.
• Set the experience curve from 50-60 to take at least 10x more time and effort than than 1-50. Put very difficult cap quests (genkai) in place for lvl 50 and 55.
• re-define current Lvl gear to actual Lvl [Lvl50:iLvl150] = Lvl51 | Use something like 'star levels' to differentiate future gear power of the same lvl: ie. lvl50☆☆☆, lvl53☆, lvl60☆☆, etc..
• Introduce branching horizontal gear progression beginning at Lvl 55 - give players new types of gear to experiment with and debate over.
• Introduce new Materia, Gear and Food that enhances some traits and abilities, but in exchange, has negative effects on other stats, traits or abilities.
• Implement a 'Player-Created crafting Leve' system in each DoH guild. Players could create their own Leves by submitting mats (even U/U mats) to a NPC/Bulletin Board, where Members of the guild could accept the leve and craft the item for the other player in exchange for a reward and exp. (the initiating player would buy "insurance" to cover the mats in case of a failed synth)
• Introduce ultra rare RNG (U/U) drops from dungeons/FATES/etc of lvl55~60 gear each with unique attributes that cannot be obtained in any other way. These don't have to be the most powerful, but they should be useful and interesting prestige items; Dungeons/Primals/Raids/FATEs could drop special rare U/U crafting materials as well (see previous point on crafting)
• Introduce 4-5 new Class-Exclusive abilities for each class, and at least 2 of them should be usable cross-class
• Introduce (and/or modify) recipes from iLvl30 - iLvl90 that are meldable with higher stat caps, but are only Class-Exclusive (that is, Jobs cannot equip them).
• Add Class AF gear -- Craftable but it should require special U/U mats from dungeons as well as Tomestone purchased items. Like DoH/DoL AF, it should be meldable. Also, it should look more 'realistic' and less flashy than Job AF. Something along the lines of:
• Storyline boss battles should use defined and more obvious attack patterns, but all endgame bosses should use mostly randomly or AI triggered abilities, which in turn are limited by internal cool-downs. These should be properly telegraphed at normal difficulties, but more subtly done at higher (extreme) modes.

Oddly enough, my last addition is:

• Put in place an OPTIONAL super powerful lvl60 weapon/gear quest that takes a minimum of 6 months to complete for the most dedicated of hardcores - and an average of 18-20 months to complete for mid-core players. - Most of it should either be soloable or should piggyback on other content, but it should require expertise and dedication in ALL aspects of ARR gameplay (ie. a rare item from each of the game's dungeons, FATEs, primals, raids, etc. ultra-rare gathering items, and hard-to-make crafted items, drops from treasure hunts, Beastmen quest items, special Guildleve rewards, 100k GC item, etc, etc, etc.. -- Have it all culminate in an epic battle vs a new boss that must be solo'd [eg Maat] to complete.)

Basically, there needs to be an far-fetched near-impossible goal for players to strive towards if they are willing to work their asses off for it, and others can applaud and marvel if they see someone else achieve it. (Relic weapons in FFXI were like this). ** I think something like this will go far in taking some of the elitism out of the game as well. It's kind of hard to be elitist when your gear is obviously not the absolute best, or conversely when you're too busy working your ass off trying to obtain it.

Great post Zantetsuken!

The new Class-exclusive stuff is interesting, and I'm unsure of it, but since we have Classes, there should be a push to make them more relevant in some ways.

The only thing I'd add to your list is some type of meaningful Party Combo System, where players can contribute in a cool way to generate real Combos. It doesn't have to be the Renkei / Skillchain System from the older Final Fantasy, but something that involves engaging w/ your teammates and creating something cool as a result. This keeps Combat fresh and interesting.

I sincerely hope Yoshi P sees your post.

[NefGP]

Who the hell needs a sense of accomplishment from a damned video game?

Whatever happened to playing games because they were a fun thing to do? Why does it always have to be about lording over other people, deriving pleasure from the misery of others, looking down on them and pissing on them because you're the "best?"

Sounds like you have an inferiority complex and/or you just had a very harsh time in XI for whatever reasons. The game was a bit too hard in many respects and the drop rates were absurdly low on a lot of things, but the overall game as fun and well made. It wouldn't have lasted as long as it has if it hadn't been. Honestly you sound like a child throwing a tantrum because Mommy won't buy you all the shiny new toys on the store shelf - no sense of work or patience, only instant gratification.



And there are elitists in every game, you learn to ignore them. XI's content was gated for good reason - it kept the bad players out of endgame. Look at all the people QQ that Titan is too hard (he's not, other than Landslide being the most ridiculous attack in the game he's otherwise fairly well balanced) and folks buying/selling wins. That's what happens when you leave everything completely open to everyone free of all restrictions save for your equipment, not to mention pretty much soloing your way up to 50 for the most part.

XI's grind was entirely too brutal, but the forced partying was a good thing. It made sure people could play their respective jobs and would be ready to participate at end game. The journey to endgame was also something to enjoy as well, chatting with friends between pulls, laughing at silly wipes etc... it wasn't entirely about endgame. Again I can't speak for everyone, but even through all the hardships and my many, many gripes with the game (I had a rep for b****ing about the game a lot lol...) I still had fun, and everything had a real sense of fulfillment to it.


Honesty, a little humility would go a long way. I've half a mind to report you for being so condescending and rude. Every single post from you has been nothing but badgering and belittling the opinions of Legacy and/or XI players. We don't claim to know what's best, but we have seen what works and wonder why it's not being applied to XIV. You say it's silly to have a feeling of accomplishment in a game, and yet look at Xbox or Playtation and all the trophies/achievements that have been collected. Or how about E-Sports? You know E-sports is a huge thing now right? Starcraft is basically Football in South Korea. There's MLG & Game Battles holding regular tournaments for serious cash prizes.

Just because video games focus more on cognitive prowess and reflexes doesn't make it any less valid than physical sports. Why is it fair to praise one but deride the other? Again, just because YOU see it as something silly doesn't mean everyone does.

And for the last time stop generalizing us vets as jerks who only want to see the peasants suffer, that couldn't be further from the truth. We just want content to last and have meaning, and would like some real challenge to the game. Everything in Vana'diel was a threat to you, whereas Eorzea is a stroll through the park. I'm willing to wager that at least half the folks who play XIV couldn't handle even Promyvion, never mind some of the crazier stuff that came later in XI. (Rani would drive people up the wall - hell she certainly drove me nuts, lol...)

Not that I'm advocating everything be stupidly hard or all items become super rare, far from it - but I do miss actually getting drops from bosses and not coffers. It'd be nice if when Acheron dies for example, rather than a single item per coffer he has a chance to drop a bunch of things like when you killed Kirin in XI. Just set a fair drop rate, that's all - XI time and again (until abyssea) kept drop rates far too low and most people (myself included) would not tolerate that anymore. Having stuff actually drop from NMs also helps give THF a purpose (maybe even have rare mats for crafting that only THF can steal?)

And as far as gated content goes, I like that YP is trying to make stuff accessible - it does suck when a game hits a certain age and new players are still struggling with content that was around when the game 1st came out. But I don't know that simply "easy moding" everything is the right approach. Again, XI was right to put in checks on certain content beyond simply just equipment strength to ensure that when people did reach the content, they were ready for it. It helps cut down on the drama. I for one, am beyond sick of folks who can't even get Ifrit HM or Wanderer's Palace right, never mind Titan, CT or Coil. Some people just can't (or don't want to) learn, and catering to them at the risk of ticking off dedicated supporters who've backed the company/games for years isn't exactly a bright move IMO.

[Taruranto]

-cut-

Great post.

[Doo]

It's pretty common to feel an sense of accomplishment playing video games or any game for that matter. From Tetris to Angry birds to Minecraft. I can't imagine a game that doesn't give players a sense of satisfaction in doing content.

[Tazo]

Bravo sir!