I'm liberal, but FFXIV may just be TOO liberal...

[gadenp]

as much as i love politics and all, i don't think it would be wise bringing such a topic into the forums.

Hi Saber,
Which post are you referring too? Is it the post about the C word. I could re-write it if that would be better? Was replying to another user But as you said it might be a sensitive topic to some.

[gadenp]

That bear is freaky creepy to me.

[synaesthetic]

I hate XI with a passion myself but easy? That a joke? Time consuming was a major factor in many parts of the game yeah, but the majority of the game was far from easy. Maybe after it went downhill when abyssia was released, but yeah that was what, 6 or 7+ years after release?

I played FFXI from Zilart to Wings of the Goddess. I left before Abyssea dropped.

Yes, the game was easy. Most of the bosses and NMs had little or no mechanics; they were simply gear checks. The most difficult part of FFXI was finding people to do stuff with you. Only the very hardest bosses were anything but a gear check. XIV has a much, much higher difficulty in boss mechanics, and even Twintania can't hold a candle to no-light Yogg-Saron in Ulduar when it was current tier.

"Punishing mechanic" doesn't mean "difficult mechanic."

FFXI was full of punishing mechanics--very little instanced content, losing XP when you died, de-leveling, requiring a group for virtually everything, no easy transportation, monsters that could two-shot you in virtually every zone, extremely low drop rates, expensive/time-consuming pop items, lotto pop NMs on very long timers... all of these things were designed to make sure that an extremely minimal amount of content would last years. And it did. Until the MMO genre started to mature and people wised up and all that XI was left with were the die-hard no-lifers. Abyssea and SoA were Squee's attempt to attract new blood to the game, but I don't really think they worked.

These mechanics are "punishing." They are unnecessarily punitive on the player when the slightest mistake is made. There are vague ghosts of that mentality in the Titan HM/EX encounter design, but overall XIV is designed around accessibility (this is a good thing). The only people who actually want these horribly punishing, late-90s-era MMO mechanics are those who get their jollies off mocking, degrading and pissing on others. They want to no-life their way through grindy layer after grindy layer of non-content tank-and-spank gear check open-world bosses with a 0.01% drop rate so that when they finally have their Plus Infinity Phallic Greatsword of Anal Violation, they can stand around in main cities and act like Proud Cock while lording their "mastery" of the game over the "noobs."

These people don't like modern MMOs because modern MMOs are much more egalitarian. They don't let the no-lifers get too far ahead, make sure that those without the favor of the Random Number God can take a third option (myth tomes) and rely more on vertical progression than horizontal progression, ensuring that nobody is required to spend months and months farming ten different sets of gear to clear one raid. They implement lots of accessibility and convenience and quality-of-life features that make the game more fun and less frustrating. However, this means that the "top 1%" only stays on top for a short time before the other 99% catches up.

This doesn't sit well with the stereotypical tryhard. Clearing the content isn't what matters to them, not really. It's clearing the content first, and then being members of a small, "elite" group of other tryhards who have also managed to complete the content before everyone else. The more people who can clear the content and get the treasure, the less their achievement means. So naturally these kind of people will post on official forums much like this one and cry and whine and complain and bellyache every time the developers add a progressive or egalitarian game feature or mechanic.

Disclaimer: I actually wish we had some horizontal progression as well, but measured and metered in small amounts, just so I could have a little more fun with the gearing metagame. Right now all you can do is "higher numbers" and that's a bit boring to be honest. I definitely do not want a return of FFXI's blink-in-and-out-of-reality gear-swapping nightmare mess of a horizontal progression system, but I would like a bit more than just gearing for basic attributes. I'd like to see equip effects like spell or weaponskill modifiers, something like, on a caster robe: "Fire III/Fester: Increases critical hit chance by 12%," or on a healer robe: "Cure II/Adloquium: Reduces MP cost by 10%" or something along those lines.

[Devilray]

The only 'danger' in the first zone was when you we first logged into the game and started out.. and then found out that the aggro'ing mobs were a good four levels above the others. Once you knew that the beastmen would aggro you, you stayed away from them, any sense of 'danger' quickly dissipated... Then once you got level ten, you were gone and strictly in party where you played the waiting game.

People like to remember XI like it was this milestone of MMO gaming that required skill, and knowledge, and so on... but the only thing it required was time, and some common sense. Not saying i was in the top tier that tried to bring down absolute virtue or anything, but aside from a few encounters (which in the end were usually over-tuned), the game was not difficult at all.

Seems like you are anti-FFXI from your other posts in this thread. And I think you are downplaying the "danger" aspect. Many mobs aggro different ways in FFXI. And they follow you through the whole zone which makes it very dangerous in certain cases. If you manage to disrupt their pathing, you might actually lose them unless they track by scent, then you need the deodorize spell to truly lose them or run through water. And in the low-lvl zones.... I think you are only talking about mechanics of aggro. You are not even touching on the immersion factor you gain from having to deal with those mechanics. It keeps you on your toes and watchful of your surrounding. You have to watch out for Orc, Yagudo, or Quadav that can run up behind you and kill you while you are at low health. Not to mention you had to rest and take a break between each battle (unless you had some OP refresh +HP +MP, RRIII gear after Abyssea). Quadav are the worst because they aggro you by sound so it is very hard to avoid them. FFXI > FF14. FF14 is a joke when it comes to danger. I never watch my surroundings, and only a few mobs aggro by sound. There are no weaknesses and nothing else to really worry about. Mobs run away from you. Sure, all of the immersion dissipates like anything else over time because you become familiar with it. And I would take that over FF14's lame ass danger-less Open-world traveling any day.

FFXI was actually very difficult. Did you try doing CoP missions before they nerfed it and took off the lvl cap? It wasn't just time sinks. Lots of the main-story missions required the same amount of effort that goes into a Coil group, and many mobs have different attributes, strengths, and weaknesses that make gameplay a lot more complex. You had to be decently geared and gear mattered at every level to max level when FFXI was still in its old-school days.

I agree with the OP that there is really no sense of admiration for max level characters in ARR. They are SO many people running around at lvl 50 with the same kind of gear. It just does not matter anymore. I am hoping they release more content that actually lets people stand out more besides an allagan weapon/primal weapon.

I have to agree that there really are no goals per say to complete in this game. I know it was released not that long ago. We farm content for gear... that's about it!
If someone so chooses, they can do nothing but wanderer's palace *only* and max out their myth tokens...and buy all ilvl90 gear. I'm sure they'd parade around saying how awesome they are and look down on people with less gear naturally. I consider that similar to that wow south park episode where they killed like 10 million sheep or whatever to get max level.

But basically, there is nothing in this game worth working on to be your goal if you are one to try to gain that kind of attention. Ok, some of you are going to say "well, go get your twintania weapon n00b" I don't know about your server, but I see them quite often now. In fact, there is a free company on my server that sells twintania runs now. So me having one, I can just be like the people that bought a run... There is nothing that anyone can obtain in this game that can't be carried sadly. That aside, the game is still fun, so I still play it. But my friends that like to get all obsessed with gear, I just laugh... Being the "best" at your class? Billy bob can still clear all the content, and he did it with his banjo... :/

So true... It's a shame a lot of people are just going to flame you with their "oh what's wrong with being a casual" nonsense like they are entitled to have just as much gear as someone that does real content. They blame the coil drop rate and lock-out timers when that really is not the issue. Anyone who had played since release should have more than enough coil gear for at least one job. Some people think everything should be received within the first two weeks, and they obviously are what is killing MMOs right now. There should be a distinct different between someone who beats Twintania and someone who does not raid. So far, the only difference is the allagan weapon stat wise. Everything else is just for the sake of looks or vanity in this game right now. There is nothing worth striving for when it comes to merit or attention, which comes back to the point the OP was making: No one really cares right now if you are 50 and geared right now. Blame it on the Myth tome system. It gives out "free" gear, which is why everyone is lvl 50 and decked out right now, even if they don't raid. And if you don't agree with me, I have already heard all your opinions. Some people strive to be the best in a game and want the attention from people online. Vanity is one thing, getting the best gear is even more important. This game is like a hypocritical to itself because it wants Coil raiders to get the best loot, but it destroys any sense of merit for the sake of casuals. SE is going in the right direction with the FC housing, but they gotta put that same difficulty into the gear as well. Come on SE. My mother could have got ilvl 90 in this game just from farming myth tomes, and she is not a gamer. Give me a break SE...

[BrandoH]

the only thing that really distinguishes you from other people is if you have an allagan weapon. at least on my server that's still less than 5% of the population.

They're absolutely everywhere on Cactuar. >.<
But that's just how it is late in a raid cycle. 2.2 is on the way, and with it HOPEFULLY comes that seemingly-insurmountable raid for a month or so.

[Zfz]

Older games are designed with a pyramid philosophy; only the top X% of the population would have the top gear. Some games use game time as a barrier (e.g. extremely hard to even level up), some games use difficulty as a barrier (e.g. very unforgiving mechanics, or difficulty in terms of assembling the people needed to progress).

FFXIV is designed as a theme park, catering to all players. The origin of this design is the fact that the players at the top of the pyramid pay the same as those at the bottom, yet there are easily hundred times more people at the bottom, and most of them wanting to progress to the top. But the only reason players are at the bottom is the players themselves, hence to satisfy these players, the only way is to destroy the pyramid and flatten it out.

Hence everybody can have access to Allagan gear. Also hence the gating on top-end players so the bottom players don't feel left out. All the catch-up mechanisms (i.e. nerfing old content, lowering prices for token purchases) are for this same reason.

This design is born out of the need for the game to survive. It's a business decision, not a game design decision. There's very little we can do about it except to support those games that still adopt the pyramid design. If the market shows game companies that those pyramid designs are more profitable than these flat designs, then they will go that direction. But as the past decade has shown, most people complain about those types of games as wasting time, etc.

We're just getting what the market asked for.

[gadenp]

...
We're just getting what the market asked for.

I for one am mostly happy with the way MMOs have progress and happy with SE responding to what I look for. I would like new contents and more depth. But I acknowledge that the game is new and content takes time.

I agree with Zfz, players should support games with design choices they like. Thus I for one will support FF14 ARR and look forward for more things to come.

In the end, true-er words then Zfz's statement above has not been said, in this thread and maybe in the forum. He/she has cut to the crux of the matter in an insightful and realistic manner, not really taking side but sticking to the facts.

[synaesthetic]

*words*

You're exactly the kind of person who should be looking at niche MMOs on Kickstarter. You're not going to find anything like that from a mass-market, triple-A publisher. New MMOs will only pursue accessibility even more vigorously than XIV has.

[Doo]

It feels like casual mmos always have the most non casual friendly players in them. Speed runs, high level requirements to join content, new/learning players get raged on, etc.

[Devilray]

You're exactly the kind of person who should be looking at niche MMOs on Kickstarter. You're not going to find anything like that from a mass-market, triple-A publisher. New MMOs will only pursue accessibility even more vigorously than XIV has.

Or they could just add what the niche player base wants on top of the stuff that does not matter and make us all happy.