Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[PSxpert2011]

1. Incorporate some kind of 4 and/or 8-person party grind option similar to those found in FFXI as an alternative to FATE and dungeon-grinding

2. Rather than Warcraft-esque "raids" like Binding Coil, why not bring back things like Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, and Nyzul Isle?

3. Bring back BCNM, KSNM, ENM, ZNM, ISNM, etc

4. Make gear with lasting power.

5. FFXIV needs a sense of community.

6. Other honorable mentions include Sky/Sea-type areas that are only reachable after the completion of difficult missions

[+1]

Yes to this!
If only FFXIV had a little bit of influence that made everything in the FF-Universe work before, there would be life left in the game w/o updates that would make you pull your hairs out our skulls.

========================================edit===============================================

This again? FFXI sucked, let's move past it.

[-1]

Well, we can all see know where the fail is coming from and why this games is headed down the low road...



In conclusion, S-E should be looking for ideas from the community to make the game experience better beyond their own ambitions. Clearly there's more FF-veterans that know what makes a better experience than the common newbie from "that other mmo". I'm not saying they don't have good ideas either but Yoshi-P is still on the players side of the fence, he and the DEVs better be reading this thread.

[Duelle]

So the rewards like Utsusemi, Sleepga II, AF, Relic Weapon, Opo-Opo Crown and things like where useless?

Utsusemi and Sleepga II are no different from me learning Hallowed Ground at the end of Keeping the Oath. AF was lol-worthy to anyone that knew how the game worked (and story quality varied from job to job. RDM and DRK happened to have barely passable stories, while SCH had one of the better AF stories in the game). Relic Weapon was a long-term project. Opo-Opo Crown should have never existed (same thing goes for the necklace).

Not only that, quests gave fame, which lowered the merchants prices in the nation for you. It also opened up more quests.

Aside from vendor price differences, that's no different than quest chains that open up other quests.

And I'm not really sure how much the setting is established by go kill x of that. Or we have an infestation of rats.

If you learned absolutely nothing of your city state while doing quests, you weren't reading. And if you learned absolutely nothing about Ishgard during the whole mess in Coerthas, the same applies.

You establish setting by presenting not only the big picture stuff to save the world with, but also little things and actual problems that the people in the region may be having. This can include bandits, rat infestations, recovering stolen goods or even playing the emote game.

All WoW clones share this same lame pattern of quests, it's no less grindy than partying really except it's tedious, it's slower paced than partying or grinding mobs and much less enjoyable because 90% of the content is done by yourself.

You say this as if you just discovered something new. Questing manages to hide the grind well enough that you're not bored to tears (if you're actually paying attention and putting the setting together when you read the dialogue), which is what happens when you grind mobs ad nauseum. Worse is that once you're grinding mobs, you end up focusing on efficacy because you want it to end ASAP, which then causes you to urinate on the fun of others because then you start wanting max exp/hour. And that was FFXI leveling in a nutshell, regardless of how you want to paint it.

I'll take proper context and setting (two things FFXIV's quests deliver on) over what you misguidedly call adventure.

[Gramul]

You mean that zones were needlessly barren, making it seem that the only places that had an actual semblance of civilization were the three starter cities, Jeuno and the outlands towns of Mhaura and Selbina? I actually hated that sort of design because it took away what little credibility the three cities had.

More in the sense that they where dangerous to explore, but there where hidden segments, caves, dungeons, and groves that encouraged you to do so. And most of the time you could do so freely, without having to wait for a full party to join in a timed instance. XIV's environments are beautiful, but there's really not much to them.

Considering quests in FFXI were less rewarding than anything I've ever seen in an MMO outside of Lineage II, that's not something to really aspire for.

I personally could not give a single rats ass about the rewards from quests. I liked XI's quests because they where engaging and varied. I enjoyed playing them. They very rarely felt like a chore.
The journey actually was more important than the destination.

[Vandark]

You say this as if you just discovered something new. Questing manages to hide the grind well enough that you're not bored to tears (if you're actually paying attention and putting the setting together when you read the dialogue), which is what happens when you grind mobs ad nauseum. Worse is that once you're grinding mobs, you end up focusing on efficacy because you want it to end ASAP, which then causes you to urinate on the fun of others because then you start wanting max exp/hour. And that was FFXI leveling in a nutshell, regardless of how you want to paint it.

I'll take proper context and setting (two things FFXIV's quests deliver on) over what you misguidedly call adventure.

I've known about the boring repetitive WoW clone series of Quest line garbage since this ancient history WoW clone game http://www.perfectworld.com/ " Perfect World "

Guaranteed to have the same repetitive style of quests as ARR, even scholar plays basically the same as venomancer, spam the only strong magic move you have and stick a few enfeebling spells on your enemies with the occasional heal, woopdi do bazzel.

So no I'm very familiar with this style of leveling and I have always disliked it, FFXI's older partying system (Before Abyssea) has always been my fav style of leveling. FFXI had you jumping through zones and after they added all the expansions there was a large verity of camping spots which made it interesting, if you were a skilled player you knew about all the best places and the set ups to match those areas too.
To me partying to exp has always been the way to level in Final Fantasy, all the games before ARR have the mob grinding method of leveling and just like all the other Final Fantasy games it was always about knowing the best spots and the best ways to lvl fast.

The journey actually was more important than the destination.

Exactly, everyone knows MMO's have no final destination anyway, every single MMO out there has you replacing your gear over and over again, it's about the experience other wise whats the point in the first place?

[Doo]

The journey actually was more important than the destination.

The players that enjoy FFXI probably went through something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARghlVjBab0

While FFXIV makes you feel like you're at a drive thru at McDonalds.


And the complexity of it all

http://www.wilddragonchase.com/ffxi/NewSkillchain1.png

vs the simplicity of FFXIV.

I enjoy FFXIV for what it is but it could of been so much more if they had built on FFXI while taking away the long grinds. Instead we are here arguing with WoW fans who want FFXIV to cater to them because WoW is the greatest mmo ever. Oh yeah and players that sat in Jueno all day with LFG sign up because they weren't social enough or couldn't find players to form a static.

*Metal Gear Solid 4*
MMOs have changed, now players want mmos to be solo games and everything put in instances,
MMOs have changed, it's no longer about the journey but how much loot I can get asap.,
yadda yadda yadda

[Kittra]

I have so many things I want to say but I cannot possibly put them into words without making myself seem like a complete idiot. I started writing about 2 hours ago... and I've completely erased everything I wrote because I don't believe it would get my point across or it would just lose people along the way which would result in a "to long, didn't read" situation. So, I'll just write down what I have found enjoyable about MMOs that I've actually stuck with, while realizing my idea of "fun" does not in any way represent what someone else may find enjoyable and they may just downright hate what I like.

Questing & Story, without all the Hand Holding


There's just something about well written quest dialog that holds my attention and puts a smile on my face. Maybe it's because I enjoy reading fantasy, or maybe it's because I can actually see the situation happening in some fantasy land. Whatever the case, that is all pointless if the "Journey" does not exist.

When a well written quest or quest line is introduced it becomes completely and utterly unbelievable for me when the game gives me information or the location to complete the quest when it was not mentioned in the quest dialog whatsoever. It takes away the Journey element and ruins what credibility the quest may have had because "Hey, anyone could do this. That NPC didn't really need me." sinks into my brain and won't let go. It becomes less of a "Quest" and more of a "Chore" to do, simply because something within the game is telling me "Go, do this here and here and then you're done. Simple right?" *sigh*

Final Fantasy XI (I'm sorry, this is about all I really have to pull from. I did play the game for 8 years straight.) approached quests with the well written story, but instead of the A to B and back to A (or even worse, A to B and done at B...) it was more in the form of A to C... wait, where's B? "B" in this case is an element that is "inferred" to by the quest giving NPC but he does not "tell you" to do it nor does he or the game point it out. You can do A to C and completely skip B if you so choose, but if you do, just know that you are missing out on WAAAAAAAAAY more story than you would if you simply went looking for B... oh also, if you skip B, doing C is harder. In this way, you are encouraged to seek out B and in the end, you (or at least I) will feel a heck of a lot better about it and that feeling of "accomplishment" will wash over you. The thing about this is, Final Fantasy XI took it a step further in some quests, with an example being A -> D -> G, or slightly changing your quest rewards based upon how many elements of a quest line you actually "found" without the game telling you exactly where to find them. Now that's an adventure.

... and I did it again... way to long, I've probably lost people, but to hell with it. I'm posting this one... although, I had a lot more to say.

*EDIT*

Also, this horse mask takes away any credibility I may have...

[Kittra]

The Problem with Quest Leveling in MMOs?

In short, there isn't any...
Unless, the game leaves no room for quests that vary in reward.

Someone made a very good point earlier, Final Fantasy XI did a very good job on how it handled quest rewards (usually... *mutters something about 500 gil for a Siren's Tear*...), there was no "Experience" reward, but it did have multiple "unique" rewards and how you could use them without the game telling you what you could and couldn't do.

One example is a quest item you get by spawning a monster and killing it. You could choose to turn the item in for a small gil reward, OR you could just keep the item and put it up as a decoration in your Mog house (this made it so you couldn't do the quest over again till you turned in the original item), which put you at odds with the quest giver.

There are many quests like this (maybe not quite as many unique ones like that example) but each played a larger roll, such as unlocking access to an area, unlocking new quest lines (which, once again, the game did not point out to you. You had to find them.), giving you access to new spells or abilities, and unique collectible items you could display on your character or in your Mog house.

Right now FFXIV's quest system has many flaws, but the largest one to me is that, with all the EXP reward quests, there doesn't seem to be any room for quests that are just... enjoyable because they're there and approach the game differently.

By themselves, EXP quests are alright, but there's another problem associated with them that takes away from the game's overall enjoyment in my opinion.

[Kittra]

MMOs and Solo Game Play

What's wrong with solo game play in a >>>>>>> Massively Multiplayer Online Game? <<<<<<<

Really it should be: What's wrong with playing in a group on an MMORPG?

If you listen to the masses these days, it seems everyone is clamoring for more Solo play in Online games... which boggles my mind.

I am, by nature, an extremely shy individual. I'm one of those people who sat for 5-7 HOURS in Jeuno or Whitegate with my party flag up while 5-8 other people around me were doing the same. Why? Because I didn't want to be burdened with/stressed with the responsibility of forming a party and telling everyone "Ok, lets go here." because I have no self confidence in my abilities to socially interact. And yet, I play MMOs and hate solo play?

Looking back to Final Fantasy XI, I can honestly say while I'm socially inept. Leveling with random people in the most bazaar places with the most random party setups were some of the best moments of my MMO life.

We could laugh at someone screwing up, we'd chat about random subjects, someone we have no connection with can pour their heart out about how their Grandmother is dieing in the hospital and they just need to get away from it all so they play MMOs and we'll offer our condolences and try to take their mind off of it. This all happens while we're "grinding" to level up, yet it doesn't feel like a grind. Why IS that?

Maybe because even socially inept people need human interaction and crave community even if it's random. I could never be one of those people of the world who can go up to anyone, look them straight in the face and start up a completely random conversation. Yet in a group where mutual interest is concerned, eventually that interest becomes secondary, and fellowship becomes primary.

In case you can't tell, this is why I believe the current system of "Solo" Quest leveling is a downside to Final Fantasy XIV. As a tutorial to the game it's not a bad idea, but at some point I just wish there was something that could... force? random people together to accomplish a goal without the game dictating what that thing or things were.

*EDIT*

When have I had the most fun playing the game so far? Randomly being paired with people who don't care how fast they do a Duty Finder run, but instead take time to enjoy every little thing "including" the mistakes people make and are able to laugh it off.

When do I not enjoy myself? Everyday I've been subscribed so far baring what I mentioned above, but most of all doing Duty Finder runs with random people who are interested in nothing but "Do you know the dungeon/fight? How fast can we get this done?"

Also, doing things solo in a game where every character you see is controlled by an individual, feels incredibly wrong.

[Vandark]

Snip(

I feel exactly the same way about it, thanks for that, it was a good read. I hope some time in the future SE realize that there game is no longer the same masterpiece it once was and figure out some way to bring back some real feeling of adventure and bring back some content that brings people together.

The only thing I don't relate to in your story is the seeking party's, for me I was always the one bringing people together and I had a good reputation for it too. ^^b
My party's were always fun as, sometimes my party's would last multiple days at a time before dieing XD.

The longest party I ever made lasted 3 days flat and the players who left on day one would come back in on day two and 3, kind of like a rotation with players taking sleeping shifts, it was so epic.

That's just another thing about XI's play style I really loved, the fact that everyone kind of knew everyone because the world would unite all the players bringing together a real sense of community. I was popular as an exp party leader, people always knew if I was the leader to expect an epic party and for someone else it might be something different but for me that was a really cool leveling experience.

Many of the players I met leveling would also join me for end game content as well and there was always plenty of opportunity's to be re united with players I met along the way.

[Canddi]

SE did what will make them the most money; Cater to the masses. There are far more players that want easy easy easy than people that want to work for stuff and enjoy the adventure that MMO's used to have. I played XIV for 2 months and that's it, it's just another shallow mmorpg with zero depth. I've actually reactivated my XI account because of this and although it is not the same game it used to be it's still way closer to an mmo than ffxiv can ever hope to be.