Just Another 3rd party bot BUT 1000 TIMES WORSE

[Mortikhan]

Botters and RMTs are scum. Report them and move on.

Shouldn't it be the MMO makers plan to make the game, where these said scum, not affect the rest of the legitimate players fun?

Just don't think claiming NMs is the way to go.

A very good point. This is however an incomplete thought. I do not want to put you on the spot but finish your thought. How do you think they could have gone about accomplishing the goal of prevention previous to game release? How would you rectify the problem now?

I think reporting is important but also improvements to prevention methods send a strong message that exploitation is going to be hard and not worth the time for RMT and botters. In short, is it more effective to hunt the botter or disable the 3rd party programs they use?

[PandaTaru]

not reading the 11 pages of crap. it's not a new bot, it's the same but somebody in your PT engaged the nm before the archer engage the bug. Hence why the bug remained unclaimed and the bot was able to kill it once it had fulled healed.


seems that SE got rid of some bots... but I guess they come back. just kill them and let the rmt buy new accounts.. it helps the game stay alive to some extend, sadly.

[Peregrine]

Enlighten us then. Tell us the plan for dealing with RMT and bots. Please keep in mind that you can't ban everyone who crafts over 30 minutes without a leve to do or happens to do any gathering on their own for more than 30 minutes. Please tell me the site where I can pick up the latest version of "Bot Detect and Smash"...oh wait that would be a 3rd party program wouldn't it? Is your superiority in finding and harassing bots a proven method that anyone can do or will I need bionic implants? I want to know your secret formula for this activity...I would also like to know who empowered you to do it. Please share.

This is my sarcastic way of pointing out that you still have not outlined or placed any guidelines or (most importantly) restrictions on the activities of bot hunters. The "we are bot hunters so all of our actions are justified" routine is a license to aggravate other players that you as a player are granting to others. You are encouraging behavior that you have no authority to condone which is going to get some person with the best intentions banned. At some point you are going to have to put down that sheriff badge and realize that it is not your call to make.

Let's get back on topic. I will ask you the questions point blank. How do think players should react if they suspect a person is botting or RMT? What actions do you think they should take against a suspected botter or RMT? If SE does not ban a person you suspect of botting or RMT, what do you think a player is entitled to do? What methods should be employed to confirm a player is botting or RMT in your opinion and are players capable of confirmation?

If our fruit here at FFXIV is rotten then show us the way to the promised land. Show us the unspoiled fruit of nirvana. Let's see what fruit falls from your tree.

A simple software that detects pattern repetition to an inhuman degree. A specific timing always present. A path in the ground never not followed. Every bot ever created has an unmistakable visual pattern and button combination unique to it and only it. Behind that visual pattern is a mathematical expression. Quantify that expression and ban all players with that expression.

Fire the STF. Hire competent programmers with software pattern recognition experience.

Give GMs their Testicles back. Call one. Your eyes become their eyes. You watch that cheater die right in front of you, and it never comes back. That is player satisfaction.

Severity. Celerity. Certainty. The hallmarks of punishment for which presence of all ensures that behavior stops dead.

Suspension for not responding to a GM. 2nd offense, banning.

Every craftbotter, every shard farmer, banned. The first time. Retrospectively if possible extending all the way back to September. No recourse.

Public display of their names. Ten thousand players? All ten thousand names go right on the forum.

They're trying too hard. I can see a bot with my own eyes. Everyone can. They don't need mathematical confirmation if they're too incompetent to do that. I could ban ten an hour the first week. Twenty five an hour the second week. Within a month I could kill bots at one a minute, with sensitivity (I catch all bots reported) and specificity (the labelled bot is a bot) of 98% with a few software augments like autotimers, and information about everything in that players' receive packet.

Shit, I bet these bots have a characteristic recieve packet rate that exists only for them that a human couldn't duplicate if they tried.

[Mortikhan]

A simple software that detects pattern repetition to an inhuman degree. A specific timing always present. A path in the ground never not followed. Every bot ever created has an unmistakable visual pattern and button combination unique to it and only it. Behind that visual pattern is a mathematical expression. Quantify that expression and ban all players with that expression.

Fire the STF. Hire competent programmers with software pattern recognition experience.

Give GMs their Testicles back. Call one. Your eyes become their eyes. You watch that cheater die right in front of you, and it never comes back. That is player satisfaction.

Severity. Celerity. Certainty. The hallmarks of punishment for which presence of all ensures that behavior stops dead.

Suspension for not responding to a GM. 2nd offense, banning.

Every craftbotter, every shard farmer, banned. The first time. Retrospectively if possible extending all the way back to September. No recourse.

Public display of their names. Ten thousand players? All ten thousand names go right on the forum.

They're trying too hard. I can see a bot with my own eyes. Everyone can. They don't need mathematical confirmation if they're too incompetent to do that. I could ban ten an hour the first week. Twenty five an hour the second week. Within a month I could kill bots at one a minute, with sensitivity (I catch all bots reported) and specificity (the labelled bot is a bot) of 98% with a few software augments like autotimers, and information about everything in that players' receive packet.

Shit, I bet these bots have a characteristic recieve packet rate that exists only for them that a human couldn't duplicate if they tried.

Ok a good start. What if the bots evolve and have random interval timing? How would they overcome language barriers if attempting to speak to a player? What if a player is dividing their attention between watching TV and playing and just spamming enter to craft and only paying attention when they have to use the recipe? What if players are not AFK but still using a bot, how would you go about detecting it and confirming they are using it if they simply shut it down when you talk to them? How would you deal with rival LSs constantly accusing each other of botting or RMT? How would deal with someone who consistently makes accusations about RMT and botting but is never right? How would you compensate a player if they could prove they were not botting but were banned anyway? If the RTF were laid off or fired, what additional manpower would you bring on to compensate for their loss? How would those new employees be trained and who would monitor them? You said at the beginning of your post that software should be used to detect them and the RTF should be fired and replaced by those better suited but later said that you could accomplish the same goal through sight alone. Which should be relied upon?

That is just a starter list of questions. I have met people who swear on all their dead relatives graves that they have seen or spoken to God, aliens, mythical creatures and/or magic. I would not depend so much on peoples eyes for data as the brain has a funny way of interpreting things one can not explain into what that person wants to see based on their perception of things. I think we would be better with the method of program tracking and pattern detection but again the human mind can also mimic behavior rather consistently and does so even more when it becomes an unconscious act. On the flip side of that coin, given any lag whatsoever on the part of the person observing or the botter would make it appear as an inconsistent pattern either way. Perhaps a program that would run concurrently with FFXIV that monitored open applications and only programs approved by SE could be opened or FFXIV would close (ie internet browsers, music programs etc.)? With this in mind players would have a help section area where they could petition for an application they would like approved.

[Peregrine]

Ok a good start. What if the bots evolve and have random interval timing? How would they overcome language barriers if attempting to speak to a player? What if a player is dividing their attention between watching TV and playing and just spamming enter to craft and only paying attention when they have to use the recipe? What if players are not AFK but still using a bot, how would you go about detecting it and confirming they are using it if they simply shut it down when you talk to them? How would you deal with rival LSs constantly accusing each other of botting or RMT? How would deal with someone who consistently makes accusations about RMT and botting but is never right? How would you compensate a player if they could prove they were not botting but were banned anyway? If the RTF were laid off or fired, what additional manpower would you bring on to compensate for their loss? How would those new employees be trained and who would monitor them? You said at the beginning of your post that software should be used to detect them and the RTF should be fired and replaced by those better suited but later said that you could accomplish the same goal through sight alone. Which should be relied upon?

That is just a starter list of questions. I have met people who swear on all their dead relatives graves that they have seen or spoken to God, aliens, mythical creatures and/or magic. I would not depend so much on peoples eyes for data as the brain has a funny way of interpreting things one can not explain into what that person wants to see based on their perception of things. I think we would be better with the method of program tracking and pattern detection but again the human mind can also mimic behavior rather consistently and does so even more when it becomes an unconscious act. On the flip side of that coin, given any lag whatsoever on the part of the person observing or the botter would make it appear as an inconsistent pattern either way. Perhaps a program that would run concurrently with FFXIV that monitored open applications and only programs approved by SE could be opened or FFXIV would close (ie internet browsers, music programs etc.)? With this in mind players would have a help section area where they could petition for an application they would like approved.

If they have random interval timing, that's a mathematical expression too. It's going to look even less like a proficient human.

Players who don't speak the game's designed languages shouldn't be playing this game and expect to never have to speak. This is not an existing requirement to ban people who don't respond to tells, so don't pretend it is.

If the player is dividing their attention between something else and the game, too ****ing bad that's what.

You detect players that are using a bot and are present with data analysis aforementioned.

Players can't prove they weren't botting, so tough ****. They stay banned. You have no rights here. this isn't a democracy with an ACLU.

You handle people accusing others of botting by doing your god damn job.

I already told you who should replace the STF.

You handle people who are never right by doing your god damn job.

If they shut it down when talking to you, you ban them.

These questions already have answers. You just don't like them.

The cheater WANTS players like you to argue they should be able to say they were watching Netflix and hitting enter.

No, you weren't. Banned.

If you all are scared of losing your accounts because people actually start doing their jobs, start paying attention. We're tired of cheaters using these lame-ass excuses and getting away with it.

All of your friends who have been banned for illegal activities were doing illegal activities. I'm sorry. They're lying. Players like that tend to do that.

[Renshi]

I was talking with a bot just now in FFXIV.

I told him that when I was playing Ragnarok Online there was a period where I was seeing bots all around me, trying to kill the first thing they'd meet, and when I tried to talk to them they wouldn't answer me back, so I called the GMs and they've banned them.
Also, when we were discussing about pies, I told him that pies are really good, but it has to hit your taste. You can't like a pie that doesn't have the spice that you favor, but when someone bakes a new and revolutionary cake, people would say "Oh look, a new pie" and then go there and buy some to try it. Then they would say "Hey, this cake is very good!" but other would say that it sucks and go back to their favorite cake, because you know... it's their pie, and they love it because it has a cherry on the top, candies and whatsoever, full of marmalade or with a bunch of fruits on top. I told him also that I prefer the Swedish Cake, that is the cake with green marzipan and the insides full of awesome homemade cream and whipped cream (which I recall you call it Coolwhip or something), but I guess that he didn't like cakes, so he skipped the argument.
Then we talked about school, where I began that our school seems to have a very bad synchronization problem with some classes, for example doing Integrals while we were doing them in another class for at least 2 months and we didn't know what the hell the teacher was saying during those 2 months. Then when there was this Lab session, I asked the teachers (yes, we have 2 teachers for lab) why they wouldn't do a lab centred on the real life work: keeping the Professor->Student relationship and communication, but in real Client->producer cases, because that's what work in an IT sector is about too. Well, that suggestion of mine got trashed because they said that lab was centered for projects made not for a client but for ourselves. I don't say it's a good thing, but knowing that next year we have to work for a company...
After finishing the last argument I realized he was a bot.

[Peregrine]

I usually just ask how bardi's molars feel.
Me and Alfgar have gotten into it though. Spambotter.

[Mortikhan]

If they have random interval timing, that's a mathematical expression too. It's going to look even less like a proficient human.

Players who don't speak the game's designed languages shouldn't be playing this game and expect to never have to speak. This is not an existing requirement to ban people who don't respond to tells, so don't pretend it is.

If the player is dividing their attention between something else and the game, too ****ing bad that's what.

You detect players that are using a bot and are present with data analysis aforementioned.

Players can't prove they weren't botting, so tough ****. They stay banned. You have no rights here. this isn't a democracy with an ACLU.

You handle people accusing others of botting by doing your god damn job.

I already told you who should replace the STF.

You handle people who are never right by doing your god damn job.

If they shut it down when talking to you, you ban them.

These questions already have answers. You just don't like them.

The cheater WANTS players like you to argue they should be able to say they were watching Netflix and hitting enter.

No, you weren't. Banned.

If you all are scared of losing your accounts because people actually start doing their jobs, start paying attention. We're tired of cheaters using these lame-ass excuses and getting away with it.

All of your friends who have been banned for illegal activities were doing illegal activities. I'm sorry. They're lying. Players like that tend to do that.

Peregrine I am not really sure what to tell you. You have made up your mind. I do not agree with anything you said because it is all based on conjecture and assumption. None of it has any base in fact. Jumping to conclusions and banning people without any proper evidence is just as bad if not worse than the RMT and bots. The game you are describing is not a game at all. It is an interrogation. It gives anyone with a gripe with another player a means of getting them banned. Furthermore, anyone with a legitimate gripe will be afraid to speak up because they put themselves at risk of being banned under the system you suggest. Under you rules everyone would end up banned including you. Again you assume too much about me, my friends and anyone else you don't know. The boat you have built with your self-righteousness to sail the sea of sin will sink. It has far too many holes in it.

[Peregrine]

Well you enjoy the company of the bots then I guess.
Your plan is failing. Has failed. Will fail.
This game is an integrity washout.
Some players like that I suppose.

What you consider proper evidence, I consider needless pandering to a population who needs to be shown the door.
It by no means gives people leverage to get people banned. If you're reported, you're looked into. If you're not cheating, you have nothing to worry about.

You type a bunch of fluff and meaningless content full of irrational fear and a hypothetical that doesn't exist, all for...what point again?

Whatever. Defend the mechanisms botters use to stay in the game, just to white knight some made up honest people who get caught in a crossfire. You're lying to youself. Your mentailty does not keep good players in this game. it makes good players quit in disgust. It only keeps and defends scum.

This game is looking more like an experiment in RMT and cheating toleration and less like a serious game every week, and you are enabling that.

I KNOW this population. You buy their bull****.

You're the guy who doesn't vaccinate their kid.
You're the guy who pickets genetically engineered corn.

Why? Because you believe things that aren't true about the reality you perceive. Your fears are irrational and biased. Kicking the **** out of these bots does not necessitate banning innocents. Never did. You're too gullible. Everyone in prison is innocent! Remember?

For whatever reason you just wish it does. I'll leave the why up to you to tell us.

[SAMINUS]

I find it interesting that with 180 replies, and this being such an important issue that there has YET to be a post from a moderator in this thread.