Please remove gear advantages in PVP

[SirGazuntai]

The trouble with having no gear progression is that it stops the majority of players even touching PvP in an MMO. GW2 PvP was a complete flop for the same reason. The barrier of access isn't so low here as it is with LoL and such as you actually need to pay and level up in this game. There isn't going to be a huge amount of people PvPing anymore. Most people won't spam PvP the way they do now, they'll do it once in awhile when their friends are on.

You can't claim to be looking at the future of the game when you don't understand the difference between a P2P MMORPG and a F2P MOBA/e-sport.

MMORPG = The majority of players are here for progression and socializing.

MOBA = The majority of players are there for the fun of killing people, with no cares for progression

I get the idea of wanting PvP to be skill-based, opposed to whoever spends the most amount of time in the game. However, this is not the kind of game for this style of PvP. Look at any MMORPG that tried this and you'll see the PvP is completely wasted. You're asking to remove progression from a game that's all about progression.

Not to mention the huge player-base they'll piss off if they remove gear that people have been farming for the past week. There was already a huge s**tstorm when they changed 1 stat on 1 item, imagine what'll happen if they start taking hard-earned gear out of the game.

Also, I completely understand where the argument is coming from. I play basketball and I'm 6'1", which is small. I'm constantly playing against people taller than me, yet I'm happy to try harder than them to be better than them. Natural height be damned.

[MrMr]

The trouble with having no gear progression is that it stops the majority of players even touching PvP in an MMO.

The majority of people are not going to be touching or only barely touch small group arena PvP in any MMO. Most people do not play MMOs for the PvP.

GW2 PvP was a complete flop for the same reason. The barrier of access isn't so low here as it is with LoL and such as you actually need to pay and level up in this game.

The original Guild Wars PvP is a giant success. Guild Wars 2 PvP's failures had little to do with a progression system, and a lot to do with bad designers. Designers who are unable to understand how their decisions affected how the game plays, how weapon swapping should be used as a mechanic in pvp, how their healing system would function, they are so inept that basically every update since release has made the game worse not better for pvp. They failed to deliver on their marketing on multiple fronts, probably the most insulting is their combo field system. No GW2 is not an example of how MMOs need gear grind to be successful, it is an example of how bad designers can ruin a brand if they are bad.

Also the accesibility barrier while different than LoL or DotA is certainly not lower. It requires more up front time investment that is not PvP related at all, but past that there is little you need to learn. While in the aforementioned games there are a hundred possible game pieces that can be dropped on the board and to be good at the game you need really need to learn how to play with, as and against every single one of them. Not to mention item choices. FFXIV takes time investment, LoL and DotA require the gathering of a lot lot more game knowledge to even start to play well.

You can't claim to be looking at the future of the game when you don't understand the difference between a P2P MMORPG and a F2P MOBA/e-sport.

MMORPG = The majority of players are here for progression and socializing.

MOBA = The majority of players are there for the fun of killing people, with no cares for progression

I certainly understand the the difference my friend. And at its core what you don't express understanding of is the difference in business model.

I have not made an argument yet that this game shouldn't have a gear grind for the financial health of itself. I've made an argument for why a true competitive player is and should be turned off by a gear grind. I honestly don't know what the best decision is for FFXIV a subscription based MMO is in a PvP area. Building in a grind that takes most people months or years to load up all the classes they want to play could make them a lot of money or the grind could result in people that wanted a competitive experience canceling their subs and going to other games. I know that besides playing PvP to get a better idea of how this system works in that environment, I won't be playing it very much or at all. I'll go to other games that offer a competitive environment without a work more time commitment. This will likely result in me canceling my sub, that is unless their PvE content continues to be worth while to play with the friends I have who also play this game. PvP won't keep me mostly cause of the required time commitment to even play at the level that the game will be designed around. I might be in the minority of FFXIV players, but I can state with certainty that MMO PVP does not need a gear grind to be successful. In this instance I'm sure these designers believe it will make more money for them or their company within this business model, and they could very well be right.

Look at any MMORPG that tried this and you'll see the PvP is completely wasted. You're asking to remove progression from a game that's all about progression.

This is wrong, GW1 is one example. But no what I'm doing is stating that FFXIV PvP makes working more - vs working harder - a greater impact than I want it to have in a competitive environment, and that this turns my desire away from playing it. Not simply because I don't have and don't want to put in that amount of time but because I also won't actually experience the potential of what this PvP has to offer till I max my gear for multiple classes. Something I'm just not willing to spend the time to do, so I won't be playing it.

Not to mention the huge player-base they'll piss off if they remove gear that people have been farming for the past week. There was already a huge s**tstorm when they changed 1 stat on 1 item, imagine what'll happen if they start taking hard-earned gear out of the game.

It is completely unrealistic to expect that FFXIV will remove its gear grind, that doesn't change the value in expressing disappointment that it has one. It provides initial feedback on how players are reacting to a newly implemented systems, and hopefully shapes the focus for how they design their PvP in the future, possibly decreases the amount of grind required to a point I or others will choose to engage in it while not removing it for the people that value working more instead of working harder. It signals to an industry that is reluctant to innovate that there is demand for a game with a MMO style that has grindless PvP, just don't suck are your job like GW2 designers.

To even suggest that the reason GW2 pvp is so bad is due to a lack of progression is mind blowing, that game failed PvP in just about every way imaginable. None of their supporting systems lent to a team environment, no class synergy, failed combo field concepting, incredibly extreme equipment options, half their traits are useless or worse, weapon swapping added little to nothing, pretty boring game mode that actively decreased the impact a single player could have and the list goes on. GW2 failed in so many aspects that laying it at the feet on a lack of progression system is just you being dishonest.

Also, I completely understand where the argument is coming from. I play basketball and I'm 6'1", which is small. I'm constantly playing against people taller than me, yet I'm happy to try harder than them to be better than them. Natural height be damned.

Great, I'm 5'6'' the equipment I've been given is wholly insufficient to play basketball without working really hard and having grown up in favorable environments. According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...iation_history there are only 3 players in the history of the NBA who are might height or shorter. Basketball is a great example of a game where equipment has very disproportionate impact from skill. If you were born tall the amount of skill you need to have impact on the game decreases pretty significantly compared to someone of my height. Even someone if your 'meer' 6'1'' has to work a lot less hard to have the same amount if impact in a game of basketball.

[x037x]

I have not made an argument yet that this game shouldn't have a gear grind for the financial health of itself. I've made an argument for why a true competitive player is and should be turned off by a gear grind.

WRONG... A true competitive player will do whatever it takes to win, whether it be practicing his skill or grinding day and night for gear to be "better"

Your argument is invalid.

Furthermore, I'm finally full i70 PVP gear and if I get stunned locked and my purify is tapped and I have 3 well skilled semi geard PVE DPS on me.. I'M DEAD...end of story doesn't matter what gear I have, it honestly does nothing for me in that situation... YEAH I can pop my attunement ( i have to spam it and pray it pops off) but as soon as it's done a well skilled DPS will know to wait and re-stun me as soon as attunment is gone, then and I'm dead GG. So having the "gear" doesn't necessarily make me better, there is ALOT of skill involved to not get caught in a 3 DPS stun lock-rape as a WHM all the while heaing myself and teamates, esuna'ing sleeps, esuna'ing debufs etc... . If anything the gear helps me take less dmg as I kite for my life, but honestly after reaching rank 20 I can say with confidence this argument about the gear is simply the underlying envy and lack of skill from people who can't win, and therefore can't score they gear that they are complaining about.

[MrMr]

When you get facerolled by a team "full of PvP" gear I'm positive on 90% of the cases they didn't beat you because of the gear (more specially now that the difference should be small still).

It is called correlation, people who are "full of PvP" gear, have played MUCH more PvP than you, thus they have better experience, so don't assign all the blame on gear.

Who is complaining about getting facerolled? Time investment does correlate to gear it does not correlate very well at all to skill.
Someone who has little time playing this games pvp might have a lot of experience pvp in other very similar games and lot of pve experience in this one. That person could very well be more skilled than the person who has invested a significant amount of time in this games pvp. That person who invested time and got gear that has 'experience' is not necessarily skilled.

No need to throw out strawmen, just accept you value working more and not working harder rather than pathetically trying to change my and others arguments.

WRONG... A true competitive player will do whatever it takes to win, whether it be practicing his skill or grinding day and night for gear to be "better"

No a competitive player wants to be better not "better" and that right there that you needed to put quotes around the word is exactly the point.

Anyway, I tried, if you all -or both- refuse to read what is actually written in opposition to your beliefs I have no hope of having a civil discussion with you. Hopefully others will take the time instead of mindlessly forming beliefs. Best of luck with your grind for gear hopefully you are also becoming better players in the mean time.

[docbon]

So you would like PVP tweaked into an environment that tailors to your personal wants and needs in order for you to win? Would you like fries with that? Do you receive welfare and EBT as well? Do you live in section 8 housing? Do you usually ask for handouts and complain about your socioeconomic disadvantage in RL as well and then protest that other people have better jobs and get paid more than you? Is it unfair? Is the MAN keeping you down from success?

Are you a communist?

What the fuck?

[Imapooonu]

What the ****?

Yep (includes 10 characters)

@x037x

Soooo your spell is going to touch me, NOT you? Whew. Not sure how I misinterpreted that. Coulda been the fact you said you were going to, but who am I to split hairs?

[x037x]

What the fuck?

Hey I got a like for that comment.

But anyway, I was elaborating and eluding to the attitude that people who are not good enough in a certain area, demand the standards be lowered. Further more people who cannot fend for themselves in an MMO PVP, or in real life situations demand that the standards be lowered, normalized and gimped across the board so it suits their needs. Yay! everyone gets a trophy! everybody wins! Me too!! Furthermore they require assistance and handouts when they can't make it on their own, and worst of all they demand them. "If I can't win, gimp everyone so I'm better" "If I can't win normalize the standards, make it equal across the board" force everyone into an equal situation ? Humans in a competitive environment are NOT EQUAL, there are bad, good, better, and best, to force everyone into equality regardless of their skill, potential or talent is communism. Hence my example and use of the word in my earlier post you WTF'd.

[MrMr]

What the fuck?

Its funny and sad because of how little he knows what he is talking about.
The people requesting a freer environment without artificial barriers to the competitive scene or 'market' are labeled as communists. Not only does he not know what what communism is, he is using the term he doesn't understand as a way to poison a well and he is the one advocating for an environment where people are more likely to succeed on something other than their own merits.

Logic & knowledge fail wrapped in a pretty hypocrisy bow. All you can do with people like this is ignore and pity them.