SMN - 2.1 Live

[horaiyo]

The nerf hasn’t really bothered me that much. In pve, the changes aren’t too dramatic (either me or our monk is still top dps for non-ae encounters) and in pvp we’re awesome (it’s pretty rare that I’m not top dps). Pet controls do feel a bit clunkier now, but sch got the shorter end of the stick there and even then it’s not too bad.

Like people were saying before the patch went live, I’m less concerned about what they did rather than how they did it.

[Memoriae]

snip

When mobile, I mean bosses like Siren, ifrit and other bosses who will momentarily move away for an attack. though IIRC I think they are invun during the whole deal so all of our DoTs are wasted.

Its risky because if you have not notice but mages are generally not the best at sustaining blows with the armor they wear generally. dropping miasma II and then the fact we no longer have lightning is a lot heavier DPS wise than you think, every DoT counts. If you are not using each DoT you have when possible, you are not really playing smn optimally.

[Memoriae]

It was a nerf, and a pretty noticeable one, that is if one is willing to put pride aside. Though the bright side of the patch is that they did buff our ability to clear groups with the addition of blizzard II. and summoner isn't easier to play, now you can't just sit on your butt in the back lines and just drop Bio/II, Miasma, Lightning, and shadowflare. now you have to do all that but instead of staying out of harms way with lightning, you have to get in very close to put in Miasma II and then back up if you don't want to get hit by caster centric AoEs. some people were using both of them when we had it, but using neither is just very stupid.

[T0rin]

When mobile, I mean bosses like Siren, ifrit and other bosses who will momentarily move away for an attack. though IIRC I think they are invun during the whole deal so all of our DoTs are wasted.

Its risky because if you have not notice but mages are generally not the best at sustaining blows with the armor they wear generally. dropping miasma II and then the fact we no longer have lightning is a lot heavier DPS wise than you think, every DoT counts. If you are not using each DoT you have when possible, you are not really playing smn optimally.

Having not had a chance to fight Siren, I'll not comment, but at least with Ifrit, you tank him in a specific location for the vast majority of the fight. Sure, when he disappears for his dash/AoE attacks, he can leave the Shadow Flare, but that isn't reason to not use it. You can still get full durations of Shadow Flare worth of damage on him during the rest of the fight.

And you're actually suggesting that it is risky to apply Miasma 2 because you would have to dodge the same attacks melee have to dodge all the time? Really? And you only have to get close for about a second, long enough to be in range, apply Miasma 2 and move out of range.

And I refuse to accept the idea that if you don't apply Miasma 2 / Contagion to everything, you aren't playing it optimally. Not every situation is going to warrant you spending your time running into melee range for the sole purpose of getting an extra 40 potency once every minute. Not using Contagion.. that is not playing the class optimally. Not ensuring Miasma 2 is on everything before you use Contagion, not so much.

The loss of Thunder was a 6-9% DPS loss, depending on your rotation and gearing. Not using Contagion on a Miasma 2 is a 0.488% DPS loss, assuming a perfect situation where you lose absolutely no DPS in the positioning.

All of that aside, we're still topping the DPS charts, especially on the aforementioned mobile bosses.

[Memoriae]

snip

that's just it, shadowflare is a very position and timing dependent skill, if its timed wrong, you will lose a good amount of ticks, if the target moves out of it, that's more ticks lost, though having the boss move around isn't as big of a problem because of their size and depending on if tanks can hold them still. but its unavoidable in the fight vs garuda where you have to keep moving.

and it is risky because I'm not talking just about melee attacks, I'm talking about AoE skills that are pretty wide around the caster. going back to garuda, especially with extreme mode, I don't think it would be easy to just waltz in and eat an AoE; and yes, they will hurt more than a melee class considering melee classes have better armor to make up for it. moving in general for a caster interrupts casting.

[Memoriae]

the loss of thunder is more like a 20~25% DPS loss. we only had 4 DoTs to with lightning, 5 if you count Flare. Lightning was replaced by Blizzard II, which isn't a DoT, and our only other DoT is Miasma II, which is much harder to pop in a rotation than thunder. and yes we are still at the top of the DPS charts, depending on who's chart you are looking at; but we are now more balanced down and melee is going to shine more than before.

[T0rin]

the loss of thunder is more like a 20~25% DPS loss. we only had 4 DoTs to with lightning, 5 if you count Flare. Lightning was replaced by Blizzard II, which isn't a DoT, and our only other DoT is Miasma II, which is much harder to pop in a rotation than thunder. and yes we are still at the top of the DPS charts, depending on who's chart you are looking at; but we are now more balanced down and melee is going to shine more than before.

You're wrong. It is as simple as that. I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but they are absolutely inaccurate.

[Seobit]

The only way you'd get that big of a loss of dps without thunder is if all you did was just put your dots up and then stood around doing absolutely nothing until they fell off, and didn't use any pets.

[Eulogee]

All of the summoner threads seem to be trailing off into the same argument. The fact is, end of the day it is a ~10% nerf. And as myself and many others have said repeatedly it was needed. I think the general consensus is that losing thunder has made the game play of the SMN easier. I am still curious what our actual rotation will end up being. Miasma II doesn't seem worth it to me. We will see when some of the theory crafters get some solid numbers.

[Madoka]

Did Garuda start gliding across the room randomly? We had that happen with Garuda, Selene AND Eos (SMN + 2 SCH, though Selene was resummoned in time and didn't aggro Caduceus) Really wishing I was recording; it was hilarious.

I also had that happen this week. Had to tell the SCH before he ran up and wiped us. Hitting heel makes them get on you