Thunder, Medica II, Cure II/III, Holy and why it's not that bad

[Colvin]

Thunder:
This is mostly useful at lower levels. While I don't think it needed to be removed (and am confused) at why it was; it is not a huge loss. For SCH, you can easily replace the 2.5 sec 70 potency (30+40) with a 2.5 sec 80 Ruin. In particular if you are not worried about MP, you can Ruin II (instant) and go back to casting. As far as WHM goes, for the same casting time as that 70 potency, you can do an additional Stone II for 170 potency. Lastly, at 212 mp cost, it is also more expensive than the alternatives.

Additional Note: This would be far different if All DOTs were included in Fester or Bane, but they are not. That being said, I also think Miasma II should affect Fester.


Medica II:
On first glance, the issue seems to be that you basically get a 50% reduction in HP regen provided you constantly keep it up. However, Medica II is MP prohibitive, costing 665 MP every 15 seconds. I believe it was nerfed to help adjust the concept that you can have 2-3 healers Keep up Medica II and regen on a tank/party with Bard song and heal through just about any type of Rage AOE (such as T4 Dreadnaugh). In order to stop people from doing this, the action allowed them to fix this without reducing the total amount of HP healed by a single cast of the spell.

Cure II/III:
This change to Cure II/III is created to make us want to rely less on Cure II and more on Cure III. As it stands, most WHM spam Cure I using Cure II only when it's free (or if you need a big cure) and Cure III, pretty much never. I can see how they would want to adjust it, but I also don't think it accomplishes what they want. WHM will probably stick with Cure II and end up spending more MP. The truth is that even with the radius change, Cure III is just too MP prohibitive. In most situations that require high intensive AOE, the party tends to move around more than 10 yalms (eg: Titan, ADS, etc). The only current content I can see that being useful would be in Twintania where you need to cure though very intensive AOE where the party members are already purposefully clustered. Given how Succor works, I think this would be much more useful if the radius was put up to 20 (so you might use it on its own), and or the proc from Cure II also reduced the MP cost.

Holy:
They only reduced the total potency by 16.7% but not the effectiveness of the Stuns. In the end, most of the things we use this for will not change. My theory is this was done to compensate for the addition of Blizzard II. In most of the situations where you would use Holy, you wouldn't spam it without a few second break between casts because it is so expensive. However, now you can alternate Holy with Blizzard II which will actually add to the semi-stun lock state (eg: Stun 5 sec-> bind 8 sec-> stun 3 sec-> bind 4 sec-> Stun 1 sec-> Bind 2 sec). This is evidenced by the fact that the new addition of the Blizzard II spell's potency (after change) is almost the same as holy before the nerf (200+50 vs 240).

Additionally:
I would make the point that WHM DOES need adjustment. The truth is that WHM has issues with hate and MP. There are plenty of instances where SCH has a large advantage in both of these categories. This is highlighted (beyond the current issues) by my comments on Holy above. While a WHM can alternate Bliz and Holy now, it will again increase the MP usage. I would personally like to see something to help balance out the imbalances between this (Shroud of Saints vs Aetherflow) as well as lustrate vs benediction. I believe reducing cooldown for Shroud of Saints to 2 min or less would do wonders to alleviate this.

Thanks for reading!

[vpc]

I believe reducing cooldown for Shroud of Saints to 2 min or less would do wonders to alleviate this.

Thanks for reading!

Shroud of Saints is already on a 2 minute cooldown timer.

[Raenryong]

Thunder was a significant part of SMN's DPS (10-15%).

Medica2 was one of the few things making WHM situationally better than SCH. Now it is about as good as Eos' Whispering Dawn (since you can now fully control that too).

In most of the situations you'd spam Holy, you would use it back to back.

[Colvin]

Shroud of Saints is already on a 2 minute cooldown timer.

The recast time is 180 seconds

Thunder was a significant part of SMN's DPS (10-15%).... etc

I don't really see the justification for this given the math. Again, you can just cast a ruin for the same cast time and less MP

I don't dispute it is a nerf. Just that it isnt all that bad. There are plenty of things that make WHM better than sch in various situations.

Spamming Holy back to back would actually make you loose at least 2 seconds of Stun, especially when you might need to heal in-between (if a mob gets a hit off before the cast gets off). Also, remember that if you DON'T need to be curing at all, then you can only hold monsters in place for 3 consecutive casts, now you can extend that with binds.

[vpc]

The recast time is 180 seconds

No...the recast is 120 seconds.

[DreamWeaver]

Personally I don't see any reason you would like to use the Holy + Blizzard II combo to utilize Stun + bind.
If you're Holy-ing, probably means you wanna AoE mobs down ASAP, and if I'm not mistaken, bind is similar to sleep? once the monster get hit, they lose the bind status.
So....if bind is canceled on attack, binding them is pretty pointless, you might as well try to nuke them down ASAP by Holy-ing only.

[Colvin]

No...the recast is 120 seconds.

well every site says 180 seconds. Admittedly, I don't recall as I just use it whenever I need it. If it IS 120 seconds, then my point doesn't change as, in either case, it needs to be shorter (just in my opinion).

Here is some links:

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Conjurer
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/conjurer.php
http://www.ign.com/wikis/final-fantasy-xiv/Conjurer

[Colvin]

Personally I don't see any reason you would like to use the Holy + Blizzard II combo to utilize Stun + bind.
If you're Holy-ing, probably means you wanna AoE mobs down ASAP, and if I'm not mistaken, bind is similar to sleep? once the monster get hit, they lose the bind status.
So....if bind is canceled on attack, binding them is pretty pointless, you might as well try to nuke them down ASAP by Holy-ing only.

I suppose if your main use of it is to mow down groups of mobs, then yes it has lower potency. I find it is more often used for its Stun capabilities (which again have not been nerfed).

[DreamWeaver]

For me, main use is indeed to deal damage, the stun is there to ensure the tank will not die while I am Happy Holy-ing :P

[vpc]

well every site says 180 seconds. Admittedly, I don't recall as I just use it whenever I need it. If it IS 120 seconds, then my point doesn't change as, in either case, it needs to be shorter (just in my opinion).

I'm not sure why all of those are incorrect, trust me I main the class and I can tell you that it is indeed 2 minutes. Also:

http://xivdb.com/?skill/130/Shroud-of-Saints

Nonetheless, I do agree it needs to be on a shorter CD or something to offset the Medica 2 change. There are a few options they could do aside from lowering the CD such as scaling it with our own mana or give it a flat return but still being MoT(let's say 40% so it is equal to Aetherflow, but ours is 2 mins instead of every min)