Huge SMN nerf: we're losing Thunder

[Zorzi]

FFXIV summoner should have been like FFXI summoner, a TRUE summoner class...as the saying goes...if it ain't broke don't fix it.

FFXI SMN was horrifically broke, what are you talking about?

Hard to say it's 'missing' when it's not part of your actual discipline. Rather it's a bonus from another class.
I'm more worried that you SMNs are so utterly dependent on another class' abilities to shine. If that's the case, then there's more to worry than just swapping cross-class abilities here.

I mostly agree, but Thunder is also a lv8 THM skill - you need lv15 to even unlock SMN so it's literally impossible to have SMN without being able to CC Thunder. To me, that makes it a tad different to something like Swiftcast - which is almost mandatory for every class that can use it but no job requires lv26 THM.

[Theonekitten]

FFXI SMN was horrifically broke, what are you talking about?

What I'm talking about is the whole game mechanic ideal behind XI summoner. Your avatars were your muscle and you had to summon the one more specific to the situations you faced. The current avatars come off to me as nothing more than fancy battle pets. Titan-egi is ok when soloing but what do any of them bring to a group situation besides just hitting the mobs? I want avatars that I can have perform group buffs as well as special abilities like their 2 hour in groups and can make more impact and contribution to a group encounter. There should be more micro managing of your summons.

[ninthfantasy]

I've been playing SMN for like a month now, leveled it up through FATEs and learned to play via end-game dungeons. I don't really get all the maths behind the skills etc, but I really don't see how this is that big of a deal. I think the changes to Shadowflare suck (but can be avoided, just don't do it on sleeping mobs :'D), and yes a lot of issues need addressed (though I can't say I've had many problems... I find myself getting annoyed at Garuda a lot but that's probably me not managing my pet as well as I could) but I still think we can get good DPS out. Yes, losing Thunder sucks, and when I think about it I can see how it's a drop in our DPS, but if you really don't like that - go level another class?

I love playing SMN because it's fun to play, with or without decent damage. I played a BLM to 50, geared it out in DL, got relic... and got bored of their playstyle. SMN is way more fun. So regardless of all the changes, I'm just gonna try and adapt to them. It's a really fun class to play, I love the look of it and I love having a little Egi to boss around (though they mainly boss me around).

Sorry for the lack of numbers in this post, as I say, I'm not one to sit and look over the numbers when it comes to DPS and spells, I'm absolutely awful at maths so I wouldn't even know where to begin. Yes the changes suck, if you really cannot continue playing this class, by all means play another.

[Malamasala]

FFXIV summoner should have been like FFXI summoner, a TRUE summoner class...as the saying goes...if it ain't broke don't fix it.

There wasn't a single thing not broken in FFXI summoner. I still remember the classic terrible design mistakes.


- Perpetuation cost for all content of the game until you have completed endgame gearing, at which point the perpetuation is removed. I.e. an entire game spent to just remove a penalty without getting a single benefit.
- 20% damage reduction to make up for awesome buffs like "+evasion" or "+MAB" from auras, which only resulted in positive values if your group was 1 SMN, 5 job who needs buff.
- Feedback being ignored based on "Lore is more important than balance and gameplay".
- Spirits being completely forgotten in level cap raise and it took a year or two before they were "Oh, maybe we should update their spell list".
- Spirits having 0 seconds wait time to cast spells resetting to 40 seconds wait time on assault.

The only good thing with FFXI SMN was that it prepared me to have zero expectations of any good FFXIV SMN, which is good when they are clearly doing as poor a job at making the class function as this.

[SasaraiKorai]

The only good thing with FFXI SMN was that it prepared me to have zero expectations of any good FFXIV SMN, which is good when they are clearly doing as poor a job at making the class function as this.

That is a pretty inaccurate assessment. I won't deny that the job had and still has a lot of problems, but you are overlooking the benefits. Hate free damage, perfect defense, great mp recovery, resummonable tanks, innate physical and magical resistances, and a new SP ability that makes it viable for zerging. The problem is that most of these pluses don't really apply to end game content like Delve.

Perp. cost was never really a problem if you had appropriate gear and sub jobs. Avatar's Favor was and remains an absolute joke, so I can say nothing in its defense. Spirits were always useless except for emergency situations and siphon. Forgetting to update their spells was a mistake on SE's part, but even if they had you still wouldn't have used them.

On topic, I don't understand the change to Thunder. SMN has very few useful CC abilities now. The Shadowflare nerf was also unnecessary but inline with their dislike of aoe zerging. (SMN's wouldn't be invited to those parties anyway though.)

[MakotoNano]

Its not that we are dependent on one skill.

Its the fact that its a 10%-15% dps loss. Thats big.

Go to any DPS class, and take out one of their main rotation abilities. Just remove it entirely. No replacement, or alternate spell just remove it. Thats ALWAYS going to result in a dps loss.

Our high single target damage made up for our huge lack in burst / AoE.

Now our singlet target is down 10-15%, and we still suck at burst and AoE.

If they had done ANYTHING to actually buff the areas where we are lacking most (shitty pet controls, and well, mostly useless pets aside from garuda), gave us AoE actually worth a damn (Sorry but blizzard II after the nerf, is next to useless since we don't have umbral ice)

They did none of this. They just nerfed us and said "oh well."

Why would you take a SMN over a blm at this point? Virus? BLM can use it. Eye for an Eye? blm can do that too.

Utility? We got a combat rez. Thats it.

[Majidah]

Want to know something funny? My mains are SMN and BRD.

It's like SE is *trying* to make me quit.

Anyhow, I think Obey = Stay now is a bigger issue than thunder. I mean, yeah, hit to dps, but ya know what? Obey is a hit to gameplay.

[Kevee]

Want to know something funny? My mains are SMN and BRD.

It's like SE is *trying* to make me quit.

Anyhow, I think Obey = Stay now is a bigger issue than thunder. I mean, yeah, hit to dps, but ya know what? Obey is a hit to gameplay.

I think that was just bad wording.

I think you can do Obey+Guard to get the same functionality as we have now.

Thunder IS a hit to gameplay. I DON'T WANT TO CAST RUIN MORE.
It's boring, I already do it enough. I liked managing my timers and making judgement calls on which to cast for various transitions. I liked having to plan ahead, I liked everything about SMN, and now they're removing a portion of it.

Why?
If we needed to do less damage, then bring other numbers down. Don't make me cast ruin more, please.

And that one skill happens to be OUTSIDE OF YOUR FREAKING DISCIPLINE. That's the issue I'm getting at.

Difference is YOU haven't lost any skills in your ACN discipline. YOU have been preaching about a CC skill which is a permanent 10% dmg increase, which, as you say, NO OTHER JOB HAS.

If that one spell is worth 10-15% of your base DMG and its not part of your discipline, that's something to look at and potentially fix. Yes, you are dependent on it if its such a major loss for you, and the fact that you are so dependent on a CC skill is troublesome.

Could they have gone about other methods, like making Thunder have shorter duration time if not THM and unable to be extended using Contagion? Yes, but point remains is that, in my opinion, that skills outside of your main discipline should NEVER be such an integral part of a job's rotation to warrant such a loss

Why does it matter if it's outside of our discipline? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT CROSS-CLASS SKILLS ARE, and THEIR PURPOSE.

Why is it troublesome? Why can't class/jobs have dependency on CC skills(hint: take away Invigorate from MNK/BRD and see what happens)?
Give me a reason why, other than your opinion.

Exactly, and look what happened. Have you read on the changes to B4B and IR? They are now more focused on their home classes and jobs, and no longer as EFFECTIVE outside of their class and jobs.

INVIGORATE

[whoopeeragon]

Its not that we are dependent on one skill.

Its the fact that its a 10%-15% dps loss. Thats big.

Go to any DPS class, and take out one of their main rotation abilities. Just remove it entirely. No replacement, or alternate spell just remove it. Thats ALWAYS going to result in a dps loss.

And that one skill happens to be OUTSIDE OF YOUR FREAKING DISCIPLINE. That's the issue I'm getting at.

Difference is YOU haven't lost any skills in your ACN discipline. YOU have been preaching about a CC skill which is a permanent 10% dmg increase, which, as you say, NO OTHER JOB HAS.

If that one spell is worth 10-15% of your base DMG and its not part of your discipline, that's something to look at and potentially fix. Yes, you are dependent on it if its such a major loss for you, and the fact that you are so dependent on a CC skill is troublesome.

Could they have gone about other methods, like making Thunder have shorter duration time if not THM and unable to be extended using Contagion? Yes, but point remains is that, in my opinion, that skills outside of your main discipline should NEVER be such an integral part of a job's rotation to warrant such a loss

[Majidah]

but point remains is that, in my opinion, that skills outside of your main discipline should NEVER be such an integral part of a job's rotation to warrant such a loss

Have you played bard? Blood for flood and internal release are an integral part of the job and a big chunk of their DPS.
I think your opinion is based on your personal look on things and not the actual game.