Roll Over Minutes for Tomes Please

[Xairos]

I understand theorizing for fun on the forums, but this wont be implemented any time soon because, like others have stated, this system can be abused to "get gear for not playing the game".

I understand that the tome count comes out to be equal, however, the only system ever used in games is boosted xp for time logged off, never gear or gear currency (then why play at all). As Yoshi has stated, when new content comes out, it will require dedication to complete, as newer patches get released, said content will gradually become easier and easier to access. I dont run Tome content every week religiously because I am not that type of player. Currently, Tome grinding is focused on people who track their progress week after week. I am not that target. So , as a result, I miss some weeks. But I am cool with that. I have Uni and such to attend to so its not that big of a deal to me.

That being said, honestly, what is the point of getting access to AF2 at the same rate as someone who plays every monday and caps tomes? Odds are that person will be itching to run Coil whereas you might not even care. I mean are you the type of player that Has skype, mumble, Teamspeak and are willing to talk (or be talked to) by strangers each week for the sake of phat loot? If not, then relax and admit you are looking to get Myth Gear for the vanity of it all and thus the time saved by a rollover is inconsequential.

[Billie21]

I don't understand what's so outragious with the OP's idea.

I see no one complaining about stacking leves so that if you didn't do 6 leves today, you can do 12 tomorrow. Why should other caps be any different?

Leves are capped at 100, just put some "max cap" for tomes if you're scared casuals/RL-busy people might gear up too fast (that's laughable since it won't be as fast as someone who's been playing this whole time anyway, duh). They will have to put the same amount of effort to gear up anyway, since they will have to run the same dungeons as everyone, the same amount of time as anyone.

[YuriRamona]

Doesn't really seem needed, and this is coming from someone who took a 2 month break.

If I could just login after 2 months and grind out all my AF2, I wouldn't have a whole lot of reasons to log back in.

This is obviously a major concern with implementing a system that accumulates/rolls over your mythology tome weekly allocation. There are serious problems with getting players to log on consistently if they could concentrate a month or more worth of tome grinding into the spawn of a day or two. Indeed, why would players remain subscribed if they can let their account lapse for a few weeks or even months and then come back fresh?

On the other hand, the system that currently exists heavily, if not severely, disincentives players who've missed the weekly reset from logging back in. As the OP explains, they are permanently behind other players (especially their friends and FC) and can not ever catch up.

In addition, the lockout on the Binding Coil would still act as a strong counterweight to implementing a "rollover" tome system (and in 2.1, the weekly Extreme Mode primal lockout). Given that mythology equipment is immensely above the equipment requirement for all current content besides Coil (and EM Primals), players will be strongly incentivized to maintain their subscription. The next closest demanding content is Crystal Tower and Titan HM, the former has an item looting lockout and the latter is an undesirable headache to a vast majority of players. This argument is clearly debatable but I don't see evidence to the contrary.

As the general population becomes better equipped, the demand on players, even in Duty Finder, rises steadily. SE obviously recognizes the gap in player achievement across the casual-dedicated gradient and that is why they are implementing the Duty Roulette. Another instance of this is the max number of leve allowances you can save: 99, which represents over two weeks worth of missing leves, in order to let low level players, crafters, and harvesters to catch up.

A weekly reset on myth tomes is antithetical to the philosophy of bridging the casual-dedicated player gap. As many other threads have lamented, the content schedule and development structure of this game strongly disfavors dedicated players: SE is much more eager to capture a large casual subscription base, it is puzzling why they have yet to indicate a willingness to move to this "rollover"-type system. Players who miss weekly resets are often the type who have real-life commitments: other things to do that supply them a steady stream of income or social fulfillment that readily distract them from the game's lackluster ilvl80+ endgame offerings (i.e. Coil and EM Primals).

I've attached a quote from my previous post that described a system similar to the original post's (which was also unanswered from the devs).

A weekly reset on the tomestone cap only partially addresses this. More casual players (or dedicated players under extenuating circumstances) will arrive at the endgame and will forever be behind players who reached endgame earlier. While the progress of dedicated players is limited, the stratification/gap between dedicated players and casual players will always be present.

Players should each have a capped allotment of mythology tomestomes assigned to them that grows every week by 300/450 starting from the first week of release.

With this system, a player that reaches level 50 for the first time tomorrow has the chance to gather the thousands of mythology tomestones that their friends or peers have already obtained over the course of the last few months.

Dedicated players aren't really harmed by this system; they were still the first to enjoy the benefits of accessing higher level content such as the Binding Coil and obtain gear earlier. And, if anything, having casual players be able to reach dedicated players' level of achievement means there are more opportunities to make friends and meet new players.

This is dangerous to fostering a healthy endgame community.

As it stands, it is quite difficult to ask dedicated players who have nearly completed a set of item level 90 equipment for a job to party up with an equally eager player who, due to the weekly cap, can only obtain, at best, one item level 90 weapon when they've reached level 50. By keeping dedicated players permanently ahead and casual players behind, there is little opportunity of mixing the two groups and generating new friendships. Even the most eager casual player must wait months to reach the level of achievement of a dedicated player - and by that point, they will once again be months ahead.

This system also disincentivizes and punishes casual players for playing through mythology tomestone-granting dungeons repeatedly. While dedicated players have dozens, if not hundreds, of completions through these dungeons and encounters along their course of obtaining mythology tomestones every week, casual players will, often, only be rewarded lesser tomestones of philosophy for completing this content. They are discouraged from reaching the same level of mastery and understanding as dedicated players. This translates to an ever-widening gap in skill and experience in endgame content.

An accumulating personal allotment is simply an extension of the ideals and tenets of the rested EXP system and the levequest allotment system. Players who have less time for the game should be encouraged and supported in their efforts to catch up, even at the highest level of endgame.

[Xairos]

This is just to state a misconception throughout this thread. Leves = exp (which) = Numerical Level

As people in other threads have stated, the reason you pay and play this game is to experience it. In a typical MMO, levels are part of the experience. Thus the reason for a leve allowance rollover. Players get levels, players experience the game.

No where in the history of MMO has the current endgame gear been deeply tied to the over all experience. And Myth Tomes = Gear (not levels). I any mmo, If i, as a player, want the best, I have to put in the leg work.

If, at this present time, a rollover system were put in place, and more people were squeezed into coil (I am theorizing that they would want to do coil because why have great gear if you arent being challenged) then more people would be put off by the community demands for coil runs: watching/or experiencing the fights, have a set day to coordinate with 7 other players, having the time to run all the turns (if you are that good), etc. ESPECIALLY if RL seems to obstruct you from playing as much as the OP is saying it does.

Some players if your static might Mountain Buster you if you say you have to take a week off from the game, thus slowing their progress down. There is no rollover in Coil.

What I am saying is ultimately, if you are a casual player (which I am), you cannot help but see that you are chasing the carrot on the stick (myth gear) for the sake of a very non-time sensitive objective (running content).

If you are not a casual player, then you should not be that far behind other Coil Runners. That is, unless you just started playing the game last week. I have run T2 in coil and I had Relic +1, AF1 body, and everything else Darklight, oh and the AK headpiece. My dps was fine, my life was decent, and we won. I was pressured by anyone in my group to be all myth geared out. And my FC is of the same mindset.

Theoretically you will always be behind. But I ask you, after you "catch up" what will you then do? Coil with the hardcores? Because remember their pace outstrips yours, so heaven forbid you have to pulled away for another week or two.

[Shizzaren]

I don't see why people who don't sub should get given tomes to catch up . However They are increasing tomes to 450 soon .

On the other hand I feel that its unfair that casual players who spent 2 months lvling to 50 because they were crafting and exploring game lose 300 tomes a week basically until they get to 50 .

The cap should increase by the amount left over each week

I laughed. I was late to get to 50, about 1 month late, then I proceeded to do 1 month break. I missed 2 months of 300 tome caps. Look at my current gear though, it is fully possible to catch up, you just gotta rush full darklight, and get myth capped. I am still "behind", as I missed out on 2 months of myth caps, and a lot of coil runs, but still I am fully able to clear coil ^^

[YuriRamona]

If, at this present time, a rollover system were put in place, and more people were squeezed into coil (I am theorizing that they would want to do coil because why have great gear if you arent being challenged) then more people would be put off by the community demands for coil runs: watching/or experiencing the fights, have a set day to coordinate with 7 other players, having the time to run all the turns (if you are that good), etc. ESPECIALLY if RL seems to obstruct you from playing as much as the OP is saying it does.

This is a valid concern. If a rollover were implemented, there will most certainly be groups that will immediately restrict invites only to players in full i90.

However, I don't think it's probable that this will further marginalize casual players.

First of all, there are currently Coil groups that readily accept players in DL + Relic, even though this is below the recommended set-up. I think it's probable that even under a rollover system, there will be Coil groups that remain catered to players that are underequipped, especially if the implementation of this system encourages casual players to come out of the woodwork and become active again.

Secondly, we have to consider the situation without a rollover system. Coil groups will continue to pull further and further ahead of casual players, not only due to the currently weekly reset system, but item level 90 drops in Coil. Even if we don't think the rollover system is adequate or positive, we can't be satisfied with the current system.

[Xairos]

This is a valid concern. If a rollover were implemented, there will most certainly be groups that will immediately restrict invites only to players in full i90.

However, I don't think it's probable that this will further marginalize casual players.

First of all, there are currently Coil groups that readily accept players in DL + Relic, even though this is below the recommended set-up. I think it's probable that even under a rollover system, there will be Coil groups that remain catered to players that are underequipped, especially if the implementation of this system encourages casual players to come out of the woodwork and become active again.

Secondly, we have to consider the situation without a rollover system. Coil groups will continue to pull further and further ahead of casual players, not only due to the currently weekly reset system, but item level 90 drops in Coil. Even if we don't think the rollover system is adequate or positive, we can't be satisfied with the current system.

Good point, I would add that looking at the 2.1 video I think more is being added for a casual player to catch up than is being added for higher tiers of Coil. I theorize that the coil runners will cap off on their gear for a specific job, and then turn to either helping out fellow FCers, or random eager casuals, or their other jobs (which by looking at some of the other threads in this forurm, is a whole different can of worms). But this theory is trickle-down and highly optimistic

[YuriRamona]

I laughed. I was late to get to 50, about 1 month late, then I proceeded to do 1 month break. I missed 2 months of 300 tome caps. Look at my current gear though, it is fully possible to catch up, you just gotta rush full darklight, and get myth capped. I am still "behind", as I missed out on 2 months of myth caps, and a lot of coil runs, but still I am fully able to clear coil ^^

The debate here is not whether you are able to or not. Of course, we CAN clear Coil with the bare minimum. You CAN clear Turn 1 and 2 practically naked. You CAN clear Turn 4 and 5 with an average item level below 80. This does not mean this is at all an ideal situation, or something that SE should be imposing on its players.

You, and other players like us, are permanently behind. Yes, you will still receive invites, and can still form your own groups. However, there will be groups that (justifiably) ask players to have higher item level equipment. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is immensely hurtful to the community, because the system incentivizes players to stratify themselves according to how many weekly resets they obtained.

We could counter this and say that these demanding groups should ease up on their restrictions, and it's their fault for drawing lines between dedicated and casual players.

To this, I would say that it's not the players' responsibility to lower their expectations (and rates of success, because however much we want to believe that equipment makes hardly a difference, it's still a tangible difference). It is absolutely SE's responsibility to prevent situations like this by implementing solutions such as a rollover system.

[Xairos]

The debate here is not whether you are able to or not. Of course, we CAN clear Coil with the bare minimum. You CAN clear Turn 1 and 2 practically naked. You CAN clear Turn 4 and 5 with an average item level below 80. This does not mean this is at all an ideal situation, or something that SE should be imposing on its players.

You, and other players like us, are permanently behind. Yes, you will still receive invites, and can still form your own groups. However, there will be groups that (justifiably) ask players to have higher item level equipment. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is immensely hurtful to the community, because the system incentivizes players to stratify themselves according to how many weekly resets they obtained.

We could counter this and say that these demanding groups should ease up on their restrictions, and it's their fault for drawing lines between dedicated and casual players.

To this, I would say that it's not the players' responsibility to lower their expectations (and rates of success, because however much we want to believe that equipment makes hardly a difference, it's still a tangible difference). It is absolutely SE's responsibility to prevent situations like this by implementing solutions such as a rollover system.

But Yuri, it is the very same community that imposes the tight requirements that make players feel like gear comes first and experience and willingness second. SE has given us a system that is rather forgiving since we all can see that you CAN clear coil at less than optimum. I am grateful for that. This could be like the old days where DPS checks were stringent and everyone needed the best of the best. In 14 we can safely say that Endgame content can be cleared at less than optimum gear on a fraction of the group? Thats pretty swell.

It's not the Developers duty to make a game where "reaching the same level of mastery and understanding as dedicated players" is obtainable by a person who doesn't want to put forth the dedication to reach said mastery and understanding. That isnt fair to the overachievers. We can't pull them down and call it fair. As long as there are persistent worlds in games, there will be overachievers and people who play just to play.

[YuriRamona]

It's not the Developers duty to make a game where "reaching the same level of mastery and understanding as dedicated players" is obtainable by a person who wants to neither put forth the dedication to reach said mastery and understanding. That isnt fair to the overachievers.

I find this argument incredibly problematic, if not outright wrong. As many of the previous posters in this thread have mentioned, life, work, and social commitments are what blocks players from reaching the same level of achievement as "overachievers" (I prefer "dedicated" to use Yoshi-P's term).

It is neither good common sense or business sense to disincentivize players from meeting their real-life needs before playing the game.

Of course, I do think that players who don't fall under this category (real-life commitments), are the slackers that will unsubscribe or become inactive for long periods of time and will abuse the rollover system.

In addition, in my assessment, the cost of catering to the slackers is vastly outweighed by the gratitude of casual players with real-life commitments. As I hinted at before, if you're the kind of person who has a life that is filled enough to eat up your leisure time, it's likely that they have an exponentially greater desire for the kind of relief/break/escape that FFXIV offers.

If you're the kind of player that is prone to becoming a slacker by unsubscribing or becoming inactive while the myth tome allocation accumulates, then they probably aren't the type of player who is really in it for the long term (both financially undesirable and socially undesirable because they don't contribute meaningfully to the in-game community). They also are clearly not interested in non-myth tome content, which is 95% of the game (the persistent world you mentioned). Is there really a big loss if these players fall of the radar? I don't think so.

To address your final point, about the fairness to dedicated players: of course, a rollover system is unfair, there is no way I can disagree. However, as I mentioned in a previous self-quote, this injustice is very heavily countered by a substantial boost to the overall health and vitality of the game: more casual subscribers means a stronger, more diverse community that fills lower level areas and feeds the economy. More casual subscribers means a bigger bank for SE to hire the talent they need to actually develop content that is satisfactory to dedicated players.

In any case, we know that a lift of these restrictions is coming sooner or later. Why not do it now, before we lose the interest of such a large portion of the player base?