Musketeer: Chemist and Corsair Proposal

[MartaDemireux]

You would not survive in the world of theoretical science.

I don't know why you would say that. Personally I don't put up with name calling and unprovoked hostility in real life (I ignore them and walk away) so I certainly would not put up with it on an internet forum (blocking is effectively the same thing). I only do this for people that show a pattern and history of such behavior.

No city leader shares their weapons with normal relics though.

"Raubahn gets his unique swords and shield; Merlwyb gets her unique guns, and Kan-E-Senna gets her unique staff."

So it's unlikely Merl's weapons will be relics for MSK/COR.

Just because it hasn't been done yet is no reason to assume it never will happen. Thinking like that would have prevented us from walking on the Moon. Raubahn's could be a copy of the DRK relic (if they stick with the sword and shield), Merlwyb's could be COR's and Kan-E-Senna's could be GEO's for all we know.

As for that list of changes:

MSK:
Copy-paste error on my part as far as Hot Shot; Included an old version of it. It's meant to lead that combo and not be combo'd off of Split shot with a lower duration (as seen in the concept section). Its duration was originally long to allow a decent portion of time remaining when spreading it through Wildfire's combo but realized it would be better to just be able to apply Hot Shot and then do the WF combo. I do see the issue of clipping though and will exclude it from combo's altogether (aside from WF's effect). I don't like the idea of Stash becoming a version of Aetherflow. I envisioned Stash to literally be the fuel of CHM in restocking their item supply. For MSK/COR I think I'll impose a longer cooldown and have it be reduced by Throw Items and remove the trait that increases their stash. Also think I'll have it consume all of the user's TP to discourage liberal use on COR but still give just enough use that they can take care of themselves in a pinch. As for their version of Esuna, Protect and Shell: I see it as a non-issue. When CNJ gets a DPS role available to it that role will have the CNJ's Proshell trait and Esuna. No different here except that they are self-only.

CHM:
There are no gear changes with Throw Items, it merely allows the equipping (read: display) of a bag. I only see dual-wielding taking place in a similar fashion to MNK's weapons (1 actual weapon with skins on 2 hands) and thought it was a given due to Yoshi's public stance but perhaps I should mention more clearly that it is basically a skin swap that takes place. Bag appearance would change to match the current gun's of course. Assuming dual-wielded guns would give either 2 auto-attacks per attack round or increased auto-attack speed this would limit CHM to only 1 auto-attack per round or slow their auto-attack speed. I intend for maintenance healing to be done via Potions and have allotted enough healing items in total to be used per 60s cooldown. If anyone dies or is debuffed the use of Phoenix Down or Remedy would make it so Stash would be up before you were out of healing items. I may have to increase the healing items available to account for increases to skill speed however as I neglected to account for that. Individual item cast times is something to consider however Pharmacology already does what is suggested.

COR:
I suggest a re-reading of the abilities. There is only a maximum of 2 cards allowed already. New cards replace old cards so you would only see a +10% boost to any given stat if you gimp your overall damage output by not following combo's. The combo's as outlined in the concept portion note that you would always see 2 different cards up at any one time in normal gameplay. Wild Card's 3rd card was meant to be used with Leaden Salute to decrease a variable by 10-15% instead of 5-10%. Instead of buffing the team directly I want COR to buff the team through debuffing the enemy. Instead of focusing on roles I want them to focus on situations. Party not geared well enough in accuracy? Gimp your damage to set up a double black card Leaden Salute. Accuracy is there but damage could be improved? Gimp your damage to set up a double red card Leaden Salute. Party seems to be doing ok? Follow through with your normal combo's and end up giving a 5% critical hit rate buff with either a 5% acc or damage dealt buff. Leaden Salute applies a white card that prevents the buildup of cards while the enemy is being debuffed to prevent double dipping on buffs. I do agree that Loaded Deck should be reworked (if the job is the same role as the class it doesn't really need a stance (excluding WAR)).

[Exstal]

I don't know why you would say that. Personally I don't put up with name calling and unprovoked hostility in real life (I ignore them and walk away) so I certainly would not put up with it on an internet forum (blocking is effectively the same thing). I only do this for people that show a pattern and history of such behavior.

I say it because that's how your theory, if you formulated one, is met with in the real world against other scientists.

MSK:
As for their version of Esuna, Protect and Shell: I see it as a non-issue. When CNJ gets a DPS role available to it that role will have the CNJ's Proshell trait and Esuna. No different here except that they are self-only.

Providing Remedy as a baseline class function instead of a healer job specific function is almost absurdly powerful, especially given the instant cast self heals and other control effects provided. Being able to remove debuffs on yourself with no cast time and no CD, as a DPS, is incredibly strong. There's a reason that only WHM and SCH get access to cleanses; giving them to a DPS, especially an ranged DPS, is just a recipe for laughing your way through PvP (not to mention being super strong in solo/debuff heavy environs; the Det down debuff on Titan would mean absolutely nothing to a COR since they could remove it themselves instantly).

(Kitru's words, not mine)

[Nahara]

the bad guy in the SMN quest wields the Veil of Wyu

No, he doesn't. He wields a recolored version of the Ifrit book.

[Kitru]

I envisioned Stash to literally be the fuel of CHM in restocking their item supply.

The problem with this is still that you're not allowing the player to choose what they're going to be using because you're mechanically enforcing "this many maintenance heals, this many medium heals, this many big heals, this many AoE heals, this many cleanses" (imagine any kind of fight with intense AoE healing requirements; 5 Mega-Potions every minute aren't going to be nearly enough, especially if the party is spread out). As I said before, you're also ignoring the primary resource mechanisms. For Chemists, your version of Stash completely replaces both TP and MP, which is just a bad idea. TP and MP exist as primary resource with the various class/job specific resources acting as secondary "bonus" resources for good reason. You also didn't address anything about having to micro-manage all of the individual stacks of items in your stash; unless Chemists are going to get a completely unique UI element just for them, this means that they're going to have to watch their buff bars like a hawk, hoping that the Stash buffs don't bounce around *too* much and the stack numbers don't obscure the background element too badly.

You've already made the arbitrary decision that the items exist in infinite supply. Thematically, you don't *need* to place arbitrary limitations on the number of abilities used because you've already made that decision because that arbitrary limitation doesn't actually make sense. It would make more sense, thematically, for the Chemist "heals" to be quickly synthesized (the cast animation) rapidly degrading version of the consumables on the fly and that are then thrown (the finishing animation) instead of carrying an effectively infinite supply of items on their person that they can only replenish once every minute (unless you want to explain Stash as them synthesizing all of those abilities instantly, which can only be done at full TP, wherein it still makes more sense for each to be synthesized individually because otherwise the limitation to specific item types doesn't make sense since you're giving them infinite durations; using that logic, a Chemist should be able to sit in town for 15 minutes and replace all of their potions and hi-potions with x-potions because they take up the same space). Of course, TP as the sole resource for a healer gets kind of weird because TP and MP have very different consumption/regeneration paradigms, which complicates it.

Stash as the sole and primary resource for Chemist healing is arbitrary, illogical, imbalanced, and not fun.

When CNJ gets a DPS role available to it that role will have the CNJ's Proshell trait and Esuna. No different here except that they are self-only.

You're making the assumption that if/when CNJ gets a DPS job that Protect/Esuna wouldn't get addressed. It should also be mentioned that a CNJ DPS job is still based off of a healer class. You're providing the buff capabilities of WHM to a DPS class (and it's constituent main job).

There are no gear changes with Throw Items, it merely allows the equipping (read: display) of a bag.

"Equipping" isn't a display thing. It's the mechanical act of placing an item in an equipment slot. If you want it to read as a display change, say that. What you're intending is identical to toggling helm/jewelry to visible/hidden, which isn't anything like "equipping" those items.

Assuming dual-wielded guns would give either 2 auto-attacks per attack round or increased auto-attack speed

This would require a class trait to provide 2 auto-attacks for every 1 and another trait applied to Throw Items that provides the inverse debuff. It's another one of those things that really needs to be mentioned rahter than arbitrarily assumed. Of course, having dual wielding classes suddenly gain a passive doubling or other dramatic increase to their auto-attack damage requires revisiting their damage/combos as a whole, since you're providing them with 83.33 additional potency per GCD (and having them scale differently than non-dual wielding classes since the secondary stats do not affect auto-attacks in the same way as special attacks).

Pharmacology already does what is suggested.

I suggest you either reread or read my entire post rather than just the tiny portion of it that Exstal quoted (he posted what amounts to the TL;DR version that heavily condensed everything such that much of it only makes sense in context if you read the entire thing). The Pharmacology change is in support to the Stash change that you *really* need to look into.

I suggest a re-reading of the abilities. There is only a maximum of 2 cards allowed already.

"Limit 2 cards" can be interpreted multiple ways. Given that you had *every single attack* providing a card (such that you'd be overwriting cards pretty much all the time if it were 2 cards total rather than 2 per card type), the only implementation that made sense to me was that it was 2 cards per type, since, if you limit to 2 cards, you've got a completely schizophrenic self-buffing mechanism. And, before you bring up the form changing on MNK, form changing exists as a modification of the combo system, not as a buff metric. What you're doing here would be like having Greased Lightning have a completely different benefit depending upon what form you were in.

Wild Card's 3rd card was meant to be used with Leaden Salute to decrease a variable by 10-15% instead of 5-10%.

A more effective way to do this would be to have it directly improve your next Leaden Salute instead of adding the extra Card. The Cards exist as self-buffs with unlimited duration and, by using it, since cards have no duration, you'd be allowing the COR to have 3 cards up until they use Leaden Salute (which consumes all 3 and brings them back down to max 2 again).

Instead of focusing on roles I want them to focus on situations.

Those situations don't apply though. No party is going to need/want a temporary accuracy buff because accuracy is something that players stack until they can no longer miss (and, while you're leveling, you pretty much can't miss anyways); the only use it would have would be for the tiny number of people that run into content without actually having the necessary gear. It's because of this that the +acc on Hawk's Eye is effectively pointless. The +crit is *always* going to be dramatically inferior to +dam. The only Leaden Salute that anyone would ever use would be double Red, even if they have to double cast Hot Shot right before it, because 10% +dam on a target is going to one *helluva* lot more than the tiny portion of lost DPS that a COR would suffer from the inefficient attack pairing.

Leaden Salute isn't situational. It's something that you want to be using constantly because the buffs are universally beneficial. There's never a situation where global buffs to everyone's effectiveness aren't something that you want (especially when double red card increases *your* damage as well). BRD and SCH have to pick and choose when to apply their buffs. Your COR would just be throwing out Leaden Salute at every possible opportunity because you *always* want those benefits.

[Darkkos]

I dont know if that been said earlier but Yoshida said he doesnt want to put any job that require the use of item (Like in FFXI where Ranger needed Arrow, Ninja needed tools, etc) So I dont think Chemist will us item like Potion to heal other ppl.

[Exstal]

Being that I read Kitru's rebuttal and it's not as "hostile and belittling" as previous ones (?), I'll repost it.

I envisioned Stash to literally be the fuel of CHM in restocking their item supply.

The problem with this is still that you're not allowing the player to choose what they're going to be using because you're mechanically enforcing "this many maintenance heals, this many medium heals, this many big heals, this many AoE heals, this many cleanses" (imagine any kind of fight with intense AoE healing requirements; 5 Mega-Potions every minute aren't going to be nearly enough, especially if the party is spread out). As I said before, you're also ignoring the primary resource mechanisms. For Chemists, your version of Stash completely replaces both TP and MP, which is just a bad idea. TP and MP exist as primary resource with the various class/job specific resources acting as secondary "bonus" resources for good reason. You also didn't address anything about having to micro-manage all of the individual stacks of items in your stash; unless Chemists are going to get a completely unique UI element just for them, this means that they're going to have to watch their buff bars like a hawk, hoping that the Stash buffs don't bounce around *too* much and the stack numbers don't obscure the background element too badly.

You've already made the arbitrary decision that the items exist in infinite supply. Thematically, you don't *need* to place arbitrary limitations on the number of abilities used because you've already made that decision because that arbitrary limitation doesn't actually make sense. It would make more sense, thematically, for the Chemist "heals" to be quickly synthesized (the cast animation) rapidly degrading version of the consumables on the fly and that are then thrown (the finishing animation) instead of carrying an effectively infinite supply of items on their person that they can only replenish once every minute (unless you want to explain Stash as them synthesizing all of those abilities instantly, which can only be done at full TP, wherein it still makes more sense for each to be synthesized individually because otherwise the limitation to specific item types doesn't make sense since you're giving them infinite durations; using that logic, a Chemist should be able to sit in town for 15 minutes and replace all of their potions and hi-potions with x-potions because they take up the same space). Of course, TP as the sole resource for a healer gets kind of weird because TP and MP have very different consumption/regeneration paradigms, which complicates it.

Stash as the sole and primary resource for Chemist healing is arbitrary, illogical, imbalanced, and not fun.

When CNJ gets a DPS role available to it that role will have the CNJ's Proshell trait and Esuna. No different here except that they are self-only.

You're making the assumption that if/when CNJ gets a DPS job that Protect/Esuna wouldn't get addressed. It should also be mentioned that a CNJ DPS job is still based off of a healer class. You're providing the buff capabilities of WHM to a DPS class (and it's constituent main job).

There are no gear changes with Throw Items, it merely allows the equipping (read: display) of a bag.

"Equipping" isn't a display thing. It's the mechanical act of placing an item in an equipment slot. If you want it to read as a display change, say that. What you're intending is identical to toggling helm/jewelry to visible/hidden, which isn't anything like "equipping" those items.

Assuming dual-wielded guns would give either 2 auto-attacks per attack round or increased auto-attack speed

This would require a class trait to provide 2 auto-attacks for every 1 and another trait applied to Throw Items that provides the inverse debuff. It's another one of those things that really needs to be mentioned rahter than arbitrarily assumed. Of course, having dual wielding classes suddenly gain a passive doubling or other dramatic increase to their auto-attack damage requires revisiting their damage/combos as a whole, since you're providing them with 83.33 additional potency per GCD (and having them scale differently than non-dual wielding classes since the secondary stats do not affect auto-attacks in the same way as special attacks).

Pharmacology already does what is suggested.

*edited portion that tells one to not only look at the tl;dr but entire original post*. The Pharmacology change is in support to the Stash change that you *really* need to look into.

I suggest a re-reading of the abilities. There is only a maximum of 2 cards allowed already.

"Limit 2 cards" can be interpreted multiple ways. Given that you had *every single attack* providing a card (such that you'd be overwriting cards pretty much all the time if it were 2 cards total rather than 2 per card type), the only implementation that made sense to me was that it was 2 cards per type, since, if you limit to 2 cards, you've got a completely schizophrenic self-buffing mechanism. And, before you bring up the form changing on MNK, form changing exists as a modification of the combo system, not as a buff metric. What you're doing here would be like having Greased Lightning have a completely different benefit depending upon what form you were in.

Wild Card's 3rd card was meant to be used with Leaden Salute to decrease a variable by 10-15% instead of 5-10%.

A more effective way to do this would be to have it directly improve your next Leaden Salute instead of adding the extra Card. The Cards exist as self-buffs with unlimited duration and, by using it, since cards have no duration, you'd be allowing the COR to have 3 cards up until they use Leaden Salute (which consumes all 3 and brings them back down to max 2 again).

Instead of focusing on roles I want them to focus on situations.

Those situations don't apply though. No party is going to need/want a temporary accuracy buff because accuracy is something that players stack until they can no longer miss (and, while you're leveling, you pretty much can't miss anyways); the only use it would have would be for the tiny number of people that run into content without actually having the necessary gear. It's because of this that the +acc on Hawk's Eye is effectively pointless. The +crit is *always* going to be dramatically inferior to +dam. The only Leaden Salute that anyone would ever use would be double Red, even if they have to double cast Hot Shot right before it, because 10% +dam on a target is going to one *helluva* lot more than the tiny portion of lost DPS that a COR would suffer from the inefficient attack pairing.

Leaden Salute isn't situational. It's something that you want to be using constantly because the buffs are universally beneficial. There's never a situation where global buffs to everyone's effectiveness aren't something that you want (especially when double red card increases *your* damage as well). BRD and SCH have to pick and choose when to apply their buffs. Your COR would just be throwing out Leaden Salute at every possible opportunity because you *always* want those benefits.

As it stands, there really should be no reason for me to do something like this. Kitru is the one who brings the insight and math to these types of threads and regardless of whatever feeling you have, you must look at it as a wealth of information.

For example, if you're stuck on really tough math problem and the neighbourhood genius prick comes by, "hey moron, this is how you should these problems with this formula." He thus leaves, you're going to simply ignore he told you how to fix it? Especially if no one else seems to care or even have close to the right answer? It's fine if you don't want to take that kind of "abuse" but then you'll have pipe dream classes that are broken in implementation or overpowered (like most of your suggestions before heavy revision).

EDIT: I don't really like the idea of how cards stack. If you can only have 2 cards, why would you do Split Shot (black) > Slug Shot (yellow) > Wildfire (red). You're going to be losing Black Card or forsaking red card.

1: Split Shot: (S) Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of 100. Throw Items: The target of your target will recieve a 50 potency heal over time (9s). Upon wearing off the recipient cannot be applied with Split Shot for 10s. Loaded Deck: Black Card. TP Cost: 60

22: Slug Shot: (S) Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of 110. Combo Action: Split Shot. Combo Potency: 160. Combo Bonus: 10% chance to grant Quadruple Shot buff (10s). Loaded Deck: Yellow Card. TP Cost: 80.

50: Wildfire: (S) Delivers a fire elemental ranged attack with a potency of 130 to all enemies in a cone before you. Combo Action: Slug Shot Add.Effect: Spreads a target's Burn to all enemies hit (remaining duration). 15% chance to reset Burn duration. Loaded Deck: Red Card. TP Cost: 110.

[Kitru]

I dont know if that been said earlier but Yoshida said he doesnt want to put any job that require the use of item (Like in FFXI where Ranger needed Arrow, Ninja needed tools, etc) So I dont think Chemist will us item like Potion to heal other ppl.

The abilities don't use consumables. They're effectively heals that are simply named after the consumables.

[MartaDemireux]

Being that I read Kitru's rebuttal and it's not as "hostile and belittling" as previous ones (?), I'll repost it.

Please do not feel the need to do so, absolutely no reason to play mediator. I'll read it tomorrow to see if that in fact is the case (really hope it is, because she honestly does have some good ideas now and again it's just the way they're presented I prefer not to subject myself to).

[Exstal]

Please do not feel the need to do so, absolutely no reason to play mediator. I'll read it tomorrow to see if that in fact is the case (really hope it is, because she honestly does have some good ideas now and again it's just the way they're presented I prefer not to subject myself to).

No problemo, dude~

[MartaDemireux]

Applied some changes and clarifications to the OP.

Changes to MSK:
Clarified Stash.
Stashed Remedy now CHM only to make room for a self buff
Added ability Rapid Shot. Increases auto-attack speed for a short time to increase CHM TP regernation and MSK/COR DPS.
First Aid changed from making the next *potion AoE to a 400 potency HP/MP heal with a recast of 180s (can't use on self).

Changes to CHM:
Stashed Remedy cast time increased from 1s to 1.5s.
Clarified CHM Mix effects and included a tl;dr on them.
Removed Pharmacology (Next stashed item wouldn't use a charge).
Changed name of Throw Items to Pharmacology. Pharmacology now applies Throw Items effect.
Re-added Stashed Mega-Potion.
Stashed X-Potion changed from level 40 to 45
Mix changed from level 45 to 50.
Added the cross class abilities which I had forgotten to do.

Changes to COR:
Clarified cards are overwritten after 3 have been drawn.
Clarified Leaden Salute usage and debuff duration to 6s per card consumed.
Increased white card duration from 6s to 8s per card consumed.
Wild Card now effects the party. TP restoration lowered from 400 to 200.
Loaded Deck changed from 40 to 30. Now locks in your current cards preventing them from being overwritten for a time.
Wildfire changed from level 30 to 35.
Leaden Salute changed from level 35 to 40.
Increased the buffs active cards give from 3% each to 5% each to account for new Loaded Deck.
Added the cross class abilities which I had forgotten to do.