New jobs upcoming, new tanks?

[Maqaqa]

My bet is on Samurai tanking through parry/evasion.

[MartaDemireux]

rudeness

Please stop being an internet bully. You're very rude when presenting your opinions (as fact) and being rude is never necessary.

That said, they could still make Rogue > THF+NIN. NIN a DPS and THF an evasion tank. Yes evasion tanks are hard to balance but every other game has them why shouldn't this one? People used to say it would be impossible for them to add SMN with the mechanics in place but they managed to. You could still have them steal but make it on a long timer, same with gil and make it a small amount. Both abilities worked fine this way in XI and were not OP but were nice to have. Mug (gil) could only take gil from humanoid enemies and both it and Steal had a chance to miss. Many other MMO's have THF-type classes that can steal though usually it's just a low chance from a weaponskill. They could make it a combo effect to give a 10% chance to steal an item or make Steal an ability with a 2 minute timer and a 25-50% success rate. Yes it made THF the go-to farming class in XI but how is that any different from SMN being it now in XIV?

I never said anything about LNC and PGL, no need to be rude.

No, they're not the same class I'm afraid. If you look at FFTA2 they had Archer, Ranger, Sniper and Hunter all separate jobs. Each had their own focus. Archer focused on disabling the target and used bows, Ranger focused on setting traps and used daggers and bows, Sniper focused on dealing strong damage with minor enfeebles and used greatbows, Hunter focused on dealing damage, buffing party and capturing monsters and used greatbows. There was also the Assassin which could use greatbows and katanas and had a heavy foucs in enfeebling. Edit: Greatbows did significantly more damage than bows for clarification on their differences.

From the FF Wiki:

"Archers overlap slightly with Rangers, as both specialize in bow weapons and share two trademark abilities, Barrage and Aim. The main difference is that Archers are exclusive to Ivalice, with the exception of Final Fantasy XIV, and specialize in status and elemental attacks while Rangers focus on being strong, ranged, physical attackers."

Just have to change the effect of Venomous Bite/Windbite to straight damage/non-elemental attacks when on RNG, tweak their mechanic to make up for this by letting River of Blood activate when Venomous Bite/Windbite crit (might have to reduce their damage some or add them into a combo with Heavy Shot to prevent spamming), and give them access to heavy hitting attacks, traps and/or a pet. This would make them play entirely different from BRD which is the real point. Some people may want to DPS with a bow but don't want to have to support the party with a song that drops their damage 20%.

If you read my request for a support role for queueing purposes you would see that I do not think support is separate from DPS. In fact I even say that I feel all support oriented jobs in the future should continue to be DPS at their core. I just think they should take up a different slot in the duty finder to remove the chance of getting into a party with no DPS LB.

[Exstal]

Please stop being an internet bully. You're very rude when presenting your opinions (as fact) and being rude is never necessary.

That said, they could still make Rogue > THF+NIN. NIN a DPS and THF an evasion tank. Yes evasion tanks are hard to balance but every other game has them why shouldn't this one? People used to say it would be impossible for them to add SMN with the mechanics in place but they managed to. You could still have them steal but make it on a long timer, same with gil and make it a small amount. Both abilities worked fine this way in XI and were not OP but were nice to have. Mug (gil) could only take gil from humanoid enemies and both it and Steal had a chance to miss. Many other MMO's have THF-type classes that can steal though usually it's just a low chance from a weaponskill. They could make it a combo effect to give a 10% chance to steal an item or make Steal an ability with a 2 minute timer and a 25-50% success rate. Yes it made THF the go-to farming class in XI but how is that any different from SMN being it now in XIV?

Rogue => Ninja would be the only thing that happens
THF as a tank is just silly. No FF makes THF to be a tank, why start now? "NIN was tank in XI". Definitely wasn't intended and I'm sure that won't happen here either. Having 2 jobs from 1 DPS base class both be DPS would be silly (they'd play basically the same).

I never said anything about LNC and PGL, no need to be rude.

No, they're not the same class I'm afraid. If you look at FFTA2 they had Archer, Ranger, Sniper and Hunter all separate jobs. Each had their own focus. Archer focused on disabling the target and used bows, Ranger focused on setting traps and used daggers and bows, Sniper focused on dealing strong damage with minor enfeebles and used greatbows, Hunter focused on dealing damage, buffing party and capturing monsters and used greatbows. There was also the Assassin which could use greatbows and katanas and had a heavy foucs in enfeebling.

But this if FFXIV. If you make Archer and Ranger, which would more or less be copies of one another, why would anyone play Bard? Or rather, why would you even bring Ranger over Black Mage? It's seems pretty short-sighted to add another ranged bow class just to satisfy the QQ of people who want Bard to be a ranged DPS god.

Archer - Bow
Sniper - Greatbow (Bow)
Hunter - Bow, Daggers (Thief that can use bows)
Ranger - Bow, Daggers (Thief that can still use bows)

I honestly do not think they will implement Ranger. Why? Musketeer => Corsair. There is your second non-magic ranged dps. This invalidates the need to have Ranger. Bard is good enough. But SE could throw fast ball and make Ranger branch off Archer so all Bards switch to Ranger and fall into the same pitfall as, "/shout RNG LFG Coil" as every other DPS.

[Kitru]

Please stop being an internet bully. You're very rude when presenting your point and being rude is never necessary. Not sure why I even clicked "view" on your post because I should have learned by now but rest assured I won't in the future.

I'm not being a bully. If I were being a bully, I'd rip into people that showed weakness rather than some degree of strength and resilience. I only pick fights or start debates with people that will hit back just as hard. I'm telling you, flat out, how and why your ideas are either terrible, completely unsubstantiated, or fundamentally flawed because I honestly thought that you could take it. I would hope that I'm not wrong on that count, but that's largely up to you.

If you don't want your ideas to get analyzed and criticized by other people, don't post them. You interpret my commentary as rude because you want me to be rude to you so that you can use it as a defense so that you don't have to recognize that what you have come up with is rubbish. I'm being frank with you. Being frank and being rude are not the same thing. I'm not trying to coddle you and tell you you're special and that everything that you do is wonderful. I'm giving you legitimate feedback without it handicapping it by worrying if I'll hurt your feelings. If you can't handle someone being frank with you rather than stepping on eggshells and telling you that you're special (especially when it's someone you've never met and only know through internet forums), I feel kind of sad for you.

NIN a DPS and THF an evasion tank.

Thief as a *tank*? Are you serious? You're really just saying *anything* to justify your position where Thief is a job instead of a class.

I never said anything about LNC and PGL, no need to be rude.

I was pointing out the absurdity of your logic.

No, they're not the same class I'm afraid. If you look at FFTA2 they had Archer, Ranger, Sniper and Hunter all separate jobs.

FFTA2 had Ranger, but it was nowhere *near* what you seem to think it should be, and, honestly when you consider how many jobs FFTA2 had where none of them shared names and races all had their own separate lists with *very* little overlap, they were kind of *forced* to grab a thesaurus. It's the same thing with Sniper and Hunter: they got those names because they mean the same thing; not because they're completely separate fundamental class constructs.

Each had their own focus. Archer focused on disabling the target and used bows, Ranger focused on setting traps and used daggers and bows, Sniper focused on dealing strong damage with minor enfeebles and used greatbows, Hunter focused on dealing damage, buffing party and capturing monsters and used greatbows. There was also the Assassin which could use greatbows and katanas and had a heavy foucs in enfeebling.

Care to explain how exactly one class using a greatbow and another using a normal bow means anything? The difference was there to force a class upgrade from archer to the other jobs. They're both *bows*.

Ranger for Seeq was *nothing* like the "traditional" ranger that you always bring up as the straight up damage dealer. What defines the Archer and Ranger throughout all of the FF games are Aim, Barrage, and some sort of status effect capabilities (sometimes DoTs, sometimes traditional status effects). Even in FFTA2, Hunter (which is the closest you'd get to the "Ranger" model as you define it) shares the Aim ability with Archer (Arm and Leg for Archer; Vitals for Hunter). Archer and Ranger have the *exact* same defining characteristics: they use bows, they have the abilities Aim and Barrage, they get some status effects that they can inflict. Guess what Archer in ARR gets: bows, Barrage and Aim (Hawk's Eye/Straight Shot), and they get some status effects (couple DoTs, one of which is poison, Silence, Bind).

The only way that you could see Archer and Ranger as completely separate classes within the FF universe is if you think that *any* deviation in names ends up with a completely separate class. There is no trademark ability for Ranger that Archer does not already have.

Just have to change the effect of Venomous Bite/Windbite to straight damage/non-elemental attacks when on RNG, tweak their mechanic to make up for this by letting River of Blood activate when Venomous Bite/Windbite crit (might have to reduce their damage some or add them into a combo with Heavy Shot to prevent spamming), and give them access to heavy hitting attacks, traps and/or a pet.

You're not changing anything. Changing damage type means nothing and turning them into straight damage attacks would render either them or the other ARC attacks redundant. Giving them a pet would have them either doing more damage than they should or have the pet be completely and totally worthless (there's a reason ACN gets the pet right from the start and their spam cast is only potency 80: they're build from the ground up around having a pet; to add a pet, you have to reduce the potency of absolutely everything else they get). Adding new heavy hitting attacks would make them even more broken and traps would just end up being either a worthless gimmick (if they're melee) or attacks that aren't even used as traps but just straight attacks (if they're ranged).

Your changes wouldn't differentiate the class from BRD, and they require explicit changes to fundamental abilities and traits which the devs have shown a remarkable reluctance to do (since they didn't even change the enhanced attribute traits for SCH). If you have to change how half of the attacks that a class has operate in order to make it play differently (even then, it really wouldn't change all that much; you'd still be using Windbite/Venomous Bite at regular intervals and spamming off-GCD abilities while filling the rest with Heavy Shot spam).

This is why you'll never see a new job for a class that has the same role as an existing job for that class. You can't differentiate them from the existing job sufficiently while still keeping them balanced (i.e. giving Ranger new, heavy hitting attacks would just turn it into a higher DPS BRD, which, given that BRD is DPS balanced against all of the other DPS out there, would make them provide more DPS than other DPS in the game).

If your suggestion for a new job on an existing class requires a fundamental rebuild of absolutely everything about that class in order to not have it behave nearly identical to an existing job based off of that same class, it's not going to happen. At that point, they'd be better served by just making an entirely new class that isn't handicapped by having to use all of the same traits and abilities as an existing class.

If you would read my request for a support role for queueing purposes would see that I do not think support is separate from DPS.

Too bad the devs obviously don't agree. At one point in time, support *was* a separate role. It was even referenced on the site when you checked out the classes (BRD and SCH were both labelled "Support" whereas only WHM was labelled "Healer"). They abandoned it because it didn't work. BRD became straight up DPS, and SCH turned into a straight up healer. The only remnants of their support capabilities are in their capacity to reduce primary function to augment their group (BRD lowers own DPS by 20% to increase resource generation; SCH can reduce healing by using Selene instead of Eos to get the silence and speed buffs).

[MartaDemireux]

why start now?

Why not? If they do intend to make NIN a DPS instead of a tank this time as someone said before (whether or not it was intended it did get officially turned into a tank after the community forced it to be one in XI) then they could make Thief the tank. There's a first time for everything. SCH is a good example: It's a pet user now. Granted it didn't have as strong of an image beforehand but they even left out its staple Libra which could have been similar to a MNK's dispel as it was in FFIII with "Study" as well as tell max HP or physical resistances (since there are no magical ones on monsters). So really all bets of strict continuity are out as they can do whatever they want to make it work in game.

If you make Archer and Ranger, which would more or less be copies of one another, why would anyone play Bard? Or rather, why would you even bring Ranger over Black Mage? It's seems pretty short-sighted to add another ranged bow class just to satisfy the QQ of people who want Bard to be a ranged DPS god.

Archer is already made. Ranger would play using Archer abilities of course but could gain more (or complete) use from its job abilities similar to how a SCH does or how a DPS off of CNJ would.

People would still play BRD because BRD is still going to be needed for healers' MP in progression content and rarely DPS TP in drawn out fights. Shorter fights with a mage heavy party could see good use Requiem. Some people like being needed and will of course play the job because of that. They're already nerfing BRD DPS anyway (possibly by as much as 10% I guess) which seems like its a hint towards giving ARC a 2nd job that could focus on nothing but DPS with no support side outside of innate ARC abilities (like silence).

You could bring RNG over BLM for fights where movement is crucial or where monsters have higher magic defense. There are no individual elemental resistances but the base magic defense could still play a part. If RNG had a trapping system they could use it similarly to how a SMN binds a group of monsters for speed runs without a BLM to sleep them. To bring BLM instead of RNG maybe the monsters have piercing resistance similarly to how monsters can have slashing resistance in coil turn 2 (maybe other types exist too idk only experienced it this way). Since RNG isn't in game yet there's nearly unlimited potential for it (as well as THF and NIN) to be anything which is fun to think about. I've only tossed out a couple ideas but there are so many directions they could take.

I honestly do not think they will implement Ranger. Why? Musketeer => Corsair. There is your second non-magic ranged dps. This invalidates the need to have Ranger. Bard is good enough. But SE could throw fast ball and make Ranger branch off Archer so all Bards switch to Ranger and fall into the same pitfall as, "/shout RNG LFG Coil" as every other DPS.

They may not but I hope they do. They could end up making Corsair like they did BRD by using its FFXI appearance as its inspiration. And that doesn't solve a 2nd job for ARC. I personally like things to be equal, every class having 2 jobs. I don't see how an ARC could be a tank or a healer though. This is why I suggested giving them either strong burst damage with long cooldowns, a trapping mechanic, a stance mechanic or a pet mechanic to differentiate it from BRD.

Not directed at you but the forum as a whole: There's really no need for bashing any idea into the ground. Imagine if people did that with any of the ideas that lead to our way of living now. This is a game we play for fun and write up ideas for in fun. If a mechanic simply wouldn't work it's fine to say so obviously and include reasons but in a polite manner (which is required by ToS; picking fights, rude posts or harassing is against ToS). Saying "That's an interesting idea but it wouldn't work because of X and X and X, but you could make something else work by doing X and X" is a much better way to address something than "That's a ridiculous idea and stupid! Totally insane! Would never work because X X and X. You're delusional!" Can't we all just be civil to one another? It may be the internet but we're all human beings with our own strengths and weaknesses using it.

[SwordCoheir]

And if it were done like this, how would THF and NIN be any different?

Pretty sure not all jobs will likely retain the same style or roles they maintained in past FF games. Besides the very valid point Marta brought up about FIGT/WAR > KNT/PLD in FF1 breaking that mold, not all styles brought in from previous FF games exactly fit within an MMO setting. RDM in FFXI vanilla didn't really have a role though it kept it's "core" archtype of a black/white magic user with melee and armor capabilities, it's skills for the most part were terrible, and it's usage was limited till SE gave it the enfeebling role when RotZ came out.

Anyways, I think a good difference between the THF and NIN as jobs would be a THF might be more disable/dispelling/incapacitate based (IE: steal armor/buffs, lower physical defenses, pacify moves) while the NIN can more debuff/magic resist down/magic damage based. If you want a more simplified way to put it, perhaps just have THF as a Physical defense reducer, while having NIN as a magical resistance reducer.

[Exstal]

Why not? If they do intend to make NIN a DPS instead of a tank this time as someone said before (whether or not it was intended it did get officially turned into a tank after the community forced it to be one in XI) then they could make Thief the tank. There's a first time for everything. SCH is a good example: It's a pet user now. Granted it didn't have as strong of an image beforehand but they even left out its staple Libra which could have been similar to a MNK's dispel as it was in FFIII with "Study" as well as tell max HP or physical resistances (since there are no magical ones on monsters). So really all bets of strict continuity are out as they can do whatever they want to make it work in game.

Unfortunately, Scholar isn't a very good example because there aren't many games that have Scholar present (in contrast to Thief). Ninja was supposed to be a DPS but due to the unique job system of FFXI it got changed into a tank. If it weren't for that screw up by SE in the first place Ninja would have never deviated from its role. Hence, Thief shouldn't either.

Archer is already made. Ranger would play using Archer abilities of course but could gain more (or complete) use from its job abilities similar to how a SCH does or how a DPS off of CNJ would.

People would still play BRD because BRD is still going to be needed for healers' MP in progression content and rarely DPS TP in drawn out fights. Shorter fights with a mage heavy party could see good use Requiem. Some people like being needed and will of course play the job because of that. They're already nerfing BRD DPS anyway (possibly by as much as 10% I guess) which seems like its a hint towards giving ARC a 2nd job that could focus on nothing but DPS with no support side outside of innate ARC abilities (like silence).

You could bring RNG over BLM for fights where movement is crucial or where monsters have higher magic defense. There are no individual elemental resistances but the base magic defense could still play a part. If RNG had a trapping system they could use it similarly to how a SMN binds a group of monsters for speed runs without a BLM to sleep them. To bring BLM instead of RNG maybe the monsters have piercing resistance similarly to how monsters can have slashing resistance in coil turn 2 (maybe other types exist too idk only experienced it this way). Since RNG isn't in game yet there's nearly unlimited potential for it (as well as THF and NIN) to be anything which is fun to think about. I've only tossed out a couple ideas but there are so many directions they could take.

I'll only say a small part on this because it's already been talked about a lot, there is no way you can make Ranger different enough in 5 skills from Bard. It's still an Archer. It'll still play like Archer. You just don't get songs.

They may not but I hope they do. They could end up making Corsair like they did BRD by using its FFXI appearance as its inspiration. And that doesn't solve a 2nd job for ARC. I personally like things to be equal, every class having 2 jobs. I don't see how an ARC could be a tank or a healer though. This is why I suggested giving them either strong burst damage with long cooldowns, a trapping mechanic, a stance mechanic or a pet mechanic to differentiate it from BRD.

Not directed at you but the forum as a whole: There's really no need for bashing any idea into the ground. Imagine if people did that with any of the ideas that lead to our way of living now. This is a game we play for fun and write up ideas for in fun. If a mechanic simply wouldn't work it's fine to say so obviously and include reasons but in a polite manner (which is required by ToS; picking fights, rude posts or harassing is against ToS). Saying "That's an interesting idea but it wouldn't work because of X and X and X, but you could make something else work by doing X and X" is a much better way to address something than "That's a ridiculous idea and stupid! Totally insane! Would never work because X X and X. You're delusional!" Can't we all just be civil to one another? It may be the internet but we're all human beings with our own strengths and weaknesses using it.

I do believe that ARC is the only class that can't turn into Healer or Tank. The other jobs have option to become either of those whereas Archer is black sheep. However, that's fine if they want to go for the 4 heal:4 tank:10 DPS, ARC just won't have a second job. If Yoshi gets his way, and he will, another base job right now won't have a DPS option since there needs to be Rogue/Ninja. Or we could see 4:4:12.

I just don't believe there is a reason to make another ranged bow class that doesn't conflict with Bard. Especially considering Bard is supposed to be Ranged DPS with heavy support where I see Corsair being full on ranged DPS with basically minimal utility.

[Gardes]

Archer can become a healer! Shoot at people to heal them!

On the other hand, instead of having more shooting skills for ranger, they can instead have...ranger-ish skills. Like strong mass pacification, beast killer trait/stance, traps or even a falcon pet, etc etc.

[Gandora]

You interpret my commentary as rude because you want me to be rude to you so that you can use it as a defense so that you don't have to recognize that what you have come up with is rubbish.

Bitch please !

Thief as a *tank*? Are you serious? You're really just saying *anything* to justify your position where Thief is a job instead of a class.

He's as serious as some idiot coming up with DRK tank because they wear heavy armors & that they would be great tanking with HP using Souleater.. ohwai...

I was pointing the absurdity of your logic.

^

Kitru, you definately should stop posting, as you are contradicting yourself in each of your posts. I am at work right now so I really don't have the time to look for every stupidity you post in here, however I have to admit that you're giving me great lols.

Seriously, stop your walls of texts as well, you clearly doesn't think properly when you post and you either don't re-read what you post, or so you are totaly unable to re-read yourself.

[Exstal]

The comedic value of Gandora's post is that Kitru makes a lot of sense even if he does seem cruel in his responses.