Stop lying to your groups

[FinagleABagel]

well by your own explanation, you must be a bad player if a person trying to emulate your strategies is a reason to be booted.

Except for the whole piece where we developed our strategy together, as a group - copying no one.

If you know a boss strat and you don't explain it to newbies in your group, then you're terrible. Especially if you are the one complaining about these "newbies".

Also, please read the entire post you're quoting from. I said, in the "You are a newbie" part, the role of the new player is also to try and get as much information as possible before running the dungeon.
But this doesn't replace live feedback and direct explanations from experienced players. It's just complementary.

So now, if you are not willing to share a bit of your knowledge in order for your group to perform well when new players are asking for advice regarding the upcoming battle(s), please leave the game and go play single player titles, because you are not helping anyone, you included.

Ridiculous. You do realize that there are several different valid general strategies for every turn before you even consider the composition of the party - right? I don't want my FC copying my groups strategy because we don't run a BLM/SMN. If another raid group does - you should adjust accordingly. We explain mechanics and how we handled them. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Also - you clearly didn't read my entire post.

[Fyce]

Ridiculous. You do realize that there are several different valid general strategies for every turn before you even consider the composition of the party - right? I don't want my FC copying my groups strategy because we don't run a BLM/SMN. If another raid group does - you should adjust accordingly. We explain mechanics and how we handled them. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Also - you clearly didn't read my entire post.

Your post was, in short: "Don't explain things to newbies. Let them take some hits so they will learn that way". This the most absurd thing I've ever read.
Are you going to say the same to your kids? "I didn't tell them running on the road was dangerous. I knew it was, but I think it's better if they learn by themselves" (yes, I know, comparing a real life situation to a game, what a silly thing to do).

I'm not talking about spoonfeeding here (which is a wonderful term to use after my "children" comparison. If you don't "spoonfeed" your children, they will starve and die.), I'm talking about "first necessity" advices.
"The dragon will breath twice instead of a single time when he's at 50% HP, be careful.", "Hey, Tank, it's your first time, so be aware that you will have to move from here, to there at a point of the battle, otherwise we're all dead". That kind of stuff.

Telling this to players who never did the fight doesn't serve them a "huge disservice", as you said. In fact, it can prevent your entire group from getting wiped, just because they will know to be on their guard for that specific moment. Maybe they will respond "Oh, yeah, I already saw that in a video, it should be ok, I'll do my best avoiding it". But, better safe than sorry.

So, as I said, if you are not willing to help new player to have a better understanding about the game (again, I'm not talking about "spoonfeeding" garbage), you are a bad player yourself.

"Let the party wipe a few time to see if they learn", is a terrible way of doing things.

[FinagleABagel]

Your post was, in short: "Don't explain things to newbies. Let them take some hits so they will learn that way". This the most absurd thing I've ever read.

You literally can't read. Here's my post.

Wrong. How exactly do you think all of us figured it out? How do you think we became good?

It has something to do about testing content for yourself and developing your own strategies. If you spoon feed a noob you will make that noob a bad player and do him/her a huge disservice. If a noob simply tries to copy what you do verbatim, boot em - they are a lost cause. Provide video tutorials at MOST, do not carry. Ever.

Catch the part about providing video tutorials? You have to accept what works for A won't necessarily work for B, but what A does can influence how B handles things.

I will always advocate that people develop their own play strategies. Unless a coil party has the exact same setup as mine, I will always advise to not do exactly what we do. Rather - I want them to understand why we do what we do. That way, they can develop their own strategy.

This will always be more effective than what you advocate.

Also, yes - I do want Coil groups to wipe initially. I want them to understand why their strategy failed and to think about how they should proceed. You have to let newcomers think for themselves. If they aren't willing to do that, I don't want them with our guild tag.

[flamds1]

You literally can't read. Here's my post.



Catch the part about providing video tutorials? Try again, before I decide to report you for slander. You have to accept what works for A won't necessarily work for B, but what A does can influence how B handles things.

Lol at reporting someone for slander! Are you going to sue for monetary damages too?

[MageBlack]

Except for the whole piece where we developed our strategy together, as a group - copying no one.

Ridiculous. You do realize that there are several different valid general strategies for every turn before you even consider the composition of the party - right? I don't want my FC copying my groups strategy because we don't run a BLM/SMN. If another raid group does - you should adjust accordingly. We explain mechanics and how we handled them. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Also - you clearly didn't read my entire post.

You are confusing. You say "don't copy" but encourage people to look up strategies. I guess you must be new to the MMO genre. Players will always have the "cookie cutter" build/way to do something and if its not done that way, "its wrong!". Take leveling in FFXIV for instance. If you arent doing FATE you are doing it wrong and slow, even though people hate FATES its the "fastest" way to level ergo everyone must do it. It gets to the point where anyone trying to Level up outside of that has to struggle to do so.

What does make sense is you asking that people at least try to get an idea of how things work before entering. But its like any profession in real life. They will not hire you without actual work experience. How do you get work experience if you cannot get a job working in the field without having experience? i agree with another poster in here. Have you seen a single shout saying "LFM Coil turn 1 {no experience necessary}"

As for copying, to me its like when i'm cooking. first time, i follow the recipe to the letter. After i tried it and see how it works, i begin to tweak it to suit my tastes. Same goes for this and other MMO's better to copy someone to see how things work, giving you a base to go by, then tweak it to suit your playstyle. Condemning people for doing things differently than you will not help anyone. It will frustrate you and frustrate them. I wish people were more accepting and understanding instead of impatient and resentful.

[FinagleABagel]

You are confusing. You say "don't copy" but encourage people to look up strategies. I guess you must be new to the MMO genre. Players will always have the "cookie cutter" build/way to do something and if its not done that way, "its wrong!". Take leveling in FFXIV for instance. If you arent doing FATE you are doing it wrong and slow, even though people hate FATES its the "fastest" way to level ergo everyone must do it. It gets to the point where anyone trying to Level up outside of that has to struggle to do so.

What does make sense is you asking that people at least try to get an idea of how things work before entering. But its like any profession in real life. They will not hire you without actual work experience. How do you get work experience if you cannot get a job working in the field without having experience? i agree with another poster in here. Have you seen a single shout saying "LFM Coil turn 1 {no experience necessary}"

As for copying, to me its like when i'm cooking. first time, i follow the recipe to the letter. After i tried it and see how it works, i begin to tweak it to suit my tastes. Same goes for this and other MMO's better to copy someone to see how things work, giving you a base to go by, then tweak it to suit your playstyle. Condemning people for doing things differently than you will not help anyone. It will frustrate you and frustrate them. I wish people were more accepting and understanding instead of impatient and resentful.

Normally, I'd agree with you but it's important to understand that Coil is highly dependent on what you bring with you. You can't treat a Warrior like a Paladin and you can't treat a BLM/SMN like a BRD/DRG/MNK. This changes how you have to play - especially on T5 and to some extent T2/T4.

Thus, it's always better to understand the underlying mechanics and how people fail - rather than how one group succeeds.

It's helpful to understand mechanics by looking at what other people do, but you won't find a ton of similarities because parties aren't necessarily similar.

My posts a tailored specifically about Coil, less so about Titan because Coil is literally the only time strategy matters. Everything else is dodging mechanics. Unless you a BRD or a tank - you need zero experience to clear anything in the game. All you have to do is dodge mechanics and memorizing rotations. Experience suggests a level of strategy.

For instance, we didn't clear Titan simply on the basis of tweaking the strategy. We cleared it based on sheer memorization. That's different and teachable. Regardless though, I believe people are best taught through failure.

[MageBlack]

Normally, I'd agree with you but it's important to understand that Coil is highly dependent on what you bring with you. You can't treat a Warrior like a Paladin and you can't treat a BLM/SMN like a BRD/DRG/MNK. This changes how you have to play - especially on T5 and to some extent T2/T4.

Thus, it's always better to understand the underlying mechanics and how people fail - rather than how one group succeeds.

It's helpful to understand mechanics by looking at what other people do, but you won't find a ton of similarities because parties aren't necessarily similar.

My posts a tailored specifically about Coil, less so about Titan because Coil is literally the only time strategy matters. Everything else is dodging mechanics. Unless you a BRD or a tank - you need zero experience to clear anything in the game. All you have to do is dodge mechanics and memorizing rotations. Experience suggests a level of strategy.

For instance, we didn't clear Titan simply on the basis of tweaking the strategy. We cleared it based on sheer memorization. That's different and teachable. Regardless though, I believe people are best taught through failure.

Then people need to be given the opportunity to fail. If you cant get a group because you have no experience, how do you get experience so you can get a group? FC's sure, but two of my past FC's told me to shout for a group and do it that way a few times before we let you into our group. I'm in a good FC now. So, do you allow people to join your groups if they have not run it yet but have done a little research?

[MaxDetroit]

The biggest problem I have with this issue is, that most 'experienced' players think like this:

doesn't know the dungeon = doesn't know how to play

... and this is so wrong!

There are many very good players out there who know how to play their class and are very skilled, sometimes they are even more skilled as hardcore players, and can teach them a thing or two. But sometimes they just don't progress as fast as other gamers, maybe they started the game not with launch and started playing a month later or they just don't have so much time. So naturally they end up later in the endgame, and will do most of the dungeons there for the first time. But please, don't misinterprete these people as unskilled Players.

Here is a cartoon, that displays it perfectly:

http://www.dorkly.com/comic/49235/a-tale-of-two-gamers

[FinagleABagel]

Then people need to be given the opportunity to fail. If you cant get a group because you have no experience, how do you get experience so you can get a group? FC's sure, but two of my past FC's told me to shout for a group and do it that way a few times before we let you into our group. I'm in a good FC now. So, do you allow people to join your groups if they have not run it yet but have done a little research?

Well...yeah, how else would it work? We have two highly experienced raids and those group don't change. If they did, a new player certainly wouldn't be slotted in. We put newcomers with newcomers, or as close as we can get to that. Yes, there's sometimes difficulties setting up new raids because you need a very specific set of jobs. Two bards require a dragoon. BLM/SMN with duo paladins. Scholar with a warrior. And so on....

Everyone is expected to view our videos, because we go over each mechanic and how we handled it. However, because our primary raid is a bit weird - I don't want anyone copying what we did to make up for the lack of SMN/BLM. As I said before, I want groups to understand why they fail so they can adjust individually. By always running the same compositions and strategies, we are never going to make a strategic breakthrough. The same mistakes will be made constantly if things aren't adjusted, or they simply won't work at all.