Can't make a full premade for Crystal Tower...

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

Asking for more is simply unrealistic, or plainly selfish.

Thank you for name calling, I assume you've read my posting history to judge how selfish and unrealistic I am about MMORPG and players in general. You're so great yourself!

Wait, how is that selfish to suggest more content for everyone and their mother? Yeah, whatever.

As for the rest, I don't agree, 4 bosses is just not a lot, and different difficulty levels don't change the fact that other MMORPG's release raids with 6-13 bosses on a regular basis, so it's no unrealistic at all. With 3 or even 4 difficulty levels, on day 1 of their introduction. Fact.

[Ramzal]

Thank you for name calling, I assume you've read my posting history to judge how selfish and unrealistic I am about MMORPG and players in general. You're so great yourself!

Wait, how is that selfish to suggest more content for everyone and their mother? Yeah, whatever.

As for the rest, I don't agree, 4 bosses is just not a lot, and different difficulty levels don't change the fact that other MMORPG's release raids with 6-13 bosses on a regular basis, so it's no unrealistic at all. With 3 or even 4 difficulty levels, on day 1 of their introduction. Fact.

So, how come you don't write a letter to Square with your concerns or attempt to get a job in game design to make these differences? (Not sarcasm. This is an actual question.) If you don't like something, take action to change it. I don't think arguing with people on the internet, or stating your opinion/perspective on things as fact will help.

I said earlier that I'm fine either way with how this content goes. If they keep it so that you make an 8 man team and have to duty find the next 16, that's fine by me. If they change it, that's fine too. Just think of it as a challenge in of itself or a chance to improve on leadership skills. Coordinate with other groups--or if you have to, delegate what can be done. If you all fail and die a lot, that's fine. It's a learning process for everyone. Often in life, you'll be tasked to work with people you don't know. Maybe even people you don't like and sometimes people you -think- you won't like until you get to know them better. It's really no different here. If we could go through our lives being able to do every single task with the same group of people we know, where the development? Where's the variety?

I think that there will be a greater feeling of accomplishment to be matched up with random people and pull through. Sure you want to play with your entire FC, but really you'll still be able to. Just with seven of them in this case. And if things get too dull, switch up your roster a bit. Hey, you can even see a few tactics that other people use and they get to see yours. Try to think of it in a more positive light.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

Will you please stop posting interesting comments? because then I have to answer and that ends up in a wall of text. lol.
(i’ll hide it a bit to avoid the "wall-of-text syndrome")

So, how come you don't write a letter to Square with your concerns or attempt to get a job in game design to make these differences? (Not sarcasm. This is an actual question.) If you don't like something, take action to change it. I don't think arguing with people on the internet, or stating your opinion/perspective on things as fact will help.

Haha, I think you’re right about that. Taking action is what eventually matters.

In my personal case, I probably wouldn’t be worth much to SE or any other game developer since I don’t have the technical skills to program games, and that’s an absolute pre-requisite to be a game designer (as far as I know). I'm a geek fond of technology and science but I don't think that makes me a coder. My skills are more along the lines of writing, communication and management. Maybe as producer or something that would work, but then again without prior experience and no technical knowledge? I doubt many would be interested, I also don’t know if I’d actually be able to pull it off. I do a bit of amateur game critique in my spare time though, and maybe that’s where I’d be the most useful to this industry, should I make it a job. But let’s not digress, that was just to answer your question.

What we do on forums is theoretical, imaginary design. Reality is a bit more complex than that. What we can do, as players, is voice our appreciation of various mechanics (feedback), and provide insights from one game to another. Sort of pollination, so to speak But it doesn’t mean much more than that. And you’re right, arguing is pointless. It’s just an emotional need, I guess, to reply when something just doesn’t seem right.

I said earlier that I'm fine either way with how this content goes. If they keep it so that you make an 8 man team and have to duty find the next 16, that's fine by me. If they change it, that's fine too. Just think of it as a challenge in of itself or a chance to improve on leadership skills. Coordinate with other groups--or if you have to, delegate what can be done. If you all fail and die a lot, that's fine. It's a learning process for everyone. Often in life, you'll be tasked to work with people you don't know. Maybe even people you don't like and sometimes people you -think- you won't like until you get to know them better. It's really no different here. If we could go through our lives being able to do every single task with the same group of people we know, where the development? Where's the variety?

I think that there will be a greater feeling of accomplishment to be matched up with random people and pull through. Sure you want to play with your entire FC, but really you'll still be able to. Just with seven of them in this case. And if things get too dull, switch up your roster a bit. Hey, you can even see a few tactics that other people use and they get to see yours. Try to think of it in a more positive light.

Well, I’ll say this. I totally agree with you, especially when considering real-life. You’ve got that right.

However… this is a game. It’s not meant to be a chore, and if I could deal with it on a personal level, that’s not what most players are looking for. If they don’t have enough friends, sure they’ll appreciate an auto-grouping feature and that’s why most MMO’s implement one. But if they do have enough friends (or guild mates, companions, etc.), they’ll want to play with them. Because that’s the whole point of forming a player association (PA) of like-minded individuals.

Which is why I think SE’s got it a bit backwards. Allowing people to pre-make 24-men groups should be paramount to releasing the 24-men content. It’s so obvious when you know how most players think that I can’t wrap my mind around the idea that SE thought this would go well.

As for accomplishment, challenge, and all that. You’re right in theory. But in practice, gamers don’t want a challenge forced on them because the game is lacking a feature that’s obvious and available in every other game of the same genre. For instance you could consider it a challenge to sort your inventory, but in practice most players just despise having to play inventory manager in a fantasy role-playing game…

So, on topic, while some would think it’s cool to try and kill bosses with a PUG—and you see that in other games, people recruiting for a raid around 8pm in a major city, it’s actually quite commonplace—many others would rather try it with their PA, because in their experience it’s what yields the best results. And by ‘best’, I mean "whatever makes them tick": you’ve got casual PA’s, hardcore competitive ones, some made of friends and friends of friends without external recruitment and no rules whatsoever besides "let’s play and have fun" (like mine), and so on. Everyone is entitled to its tastes.

Mixing these crowds together works in a virtual world, but not too closely; some need their static + vocal chat + grind/gear regulations and whatnot; others just wish to spend a nice moment with friends without being bothered getting the latest leet-gear (or worse, being forced to, or excluded for not having it). That’s where a tool such as a duty finder just doesn’t cut it (see: WoW’s LFR).

It’s a recipe for disaster actually, socially; it seems like forcing different minded individuals to play together in a game is the most assured way to bring about the worst in people. And I can understand why, from a cold sociological perspective, since at this point cooperation ceases to be a win-win situation: X bothers Y because they don’t have the same goal, each feels like the other is trolling and ruining the fun, because ‘fun’ is a subjective concept and they sure as hell don’t share the definition at that moment. Just read this thread, it’s quite obvious: "you allagan people will not let us play it the cool way" — "nah it’s you casual people who will hold us back and leech our performance" and so on. WoW’s LFR all over again. Certainly not the best raiding environment, regardless of one’s buttons.

About the parts in your post I highlighted in bold: I so agree with that. Wholeheartedly. However, unfortunately, duty finder is cross-server which means you don’t get to keep playing with the great people you meet. You can’t even befriend them to keep in touch, not even talk with them in /tell during the dungeon. I don’t really like these social boundaries, to be honest, and they are more rigid here than the usual for that matter. So in practice, it’s where a pre-made PUG works wonders, because players are from the same server, and it’s a great way to meet people (I know I do such pre-made PUGs in most MMO’s, even if I have a PA, because I like the feelings of adventure and learning process and everything you described). But no pre-mades, PUG’s or PA’s, for CT on release. That’s the uproar here, and I really can’t help but feel the frustration.

As for strategies, that works yeah, totally. And it’s an invaluable way to get better at playing. That’s also the whole point of reading/watching guides and their comments actually (metagame, on the internet), to know how others do it and improve yourself.

[Yshnal]

Thank you for name calling, I assume you've read my posting history to judge how selfish and unrealistic I am about MMORPG and players in general. You're so great yourself!

Wait, how is that selfish to suggest more content for everyone and their mother? Yeah, whatever.

Way to blow things out of proportion. Thanks for assuming that I was calling you a selfish one, or that that rethorical sentence was directed at you and only at you specifically. But anyway, sorry I guess, even if I stand with what I said about unrealistic expectations (keep reading below).

Also, regarding what you were suggesting, how is content harder than Coil (because let's face it, with the same base difficulty and 16 more players to coordinate it would be way harder to complete) something for everyone?

As for the rest, I don't agree, 4 bosses is just not a lot, and different difficulty levels don't change the fact that other MMORPG's release raids with 6-13 bosses on a regular basis, so it's no unrealistic at all. With 3 or even 4 difficulty levels, on day 1 of their introduction. Fact.

After how many months? And with what other content? Because, as far as I know, they usually just release those raids and some balance changes, but nothing else. If you want new systems, quests, etc. you have to wait (and pay) for an expansion.

To reiterate it, Crystal Tower was said to be content aimed at the more casual playerbase, and balanced around the Duty Finder (not to mention that it doesn't have any limits on it, unlike Coil). I don't know why some people look so surprised about it now, when this isn't news.

And regarding the 8-man limit to go into the DF, I'm sure that it will be changed when they can (or at least I remember them saying so in the Live Letter), but that will just make CT even easier though. So maybe that will be introduced along a hard mode version of it, and everyone will be happy then. Meanwhile just try to tackle that content as a new challenge. Helping/coordinating the other two full parties made of people that you don't know might prove as a good exercise, and maybe you all could end having fun with those random strangers.

Patience is a virtue, or so they say.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

1. Way to blow things out of proportion. Thanks for assuming that I was calling you a selfish one, or that that rethorical sentence was directed at you and only at you specifically. But anyway, sorry I guess, even if I stand with what I said about unrealistic expectations (keep reading below).

2. Also, regarding what you were suggesting, how is content harder than Coil (because let's face it, with the same base difficulty and 16 more players to coordinate it would be way harder to complete) something for everyone?


3. After how many months? And with what other content? Because, as far as I know, they usually just release those raids and some balance changes, but nothing else. If you want new systems, quests, etc. you have to wait (and pay) for an expansion.

4. To reiterate it, Crystal Tower was said to be content aimed at the more casual playerbase, and balanced around the Duty Finder (not to mention that it doesn't have any limits on it, unlike Coil). I don't know why some people look so surprised about it now, when this isn't news.

And regarding the 8-man limit to go into the DF, I'm sure that it will be changed when they can (or at least I remember them saying so in the Live Letter), but that will just make CT even easier though. So maybe that will be introduced along a hard mode version of it, and everyone will be happy then. Meanwhile just try to tackle that content as a new challenge. Helping/coordinating the other two full parties made of people that you don't know might prove as a good exercise, and maybe you all could end having fun with those random strangers.

Patience is a virtue, or so they say.

(Please bear with me as I added numbers in your quote just to address points specifically without multi-quoting)
1. Well, you did quote me and replied directly to my arguments so forgive me if I assumed that your post was directed at me, but it just seemed logical. If it wasn't, then this is a misunderstanding between us and I hope we can move past that. No hard feelings!

2. More people doesn't necessarily mean that it's harder overall. If you know WoW for instance, compare 25-men Raid Finder with 10-men heroic of the same raid… see what I mean? ^^; Also, while it's true that coordination is harder with more people, it can totally be alleviated with lower enemy damage, more forgiving mechanics, less complicated patterns to remember, etc. Also, CT is supposed to be played as 3 groups of 8, not 1 group of 24 (implying, from what I understand, that you won't ever play with more than 7 other people at a time; excepted perhaps for the last boss, and that might be separate teams as in FF VI). I really think, given that CT is in the DF, from all the experience I have in MMO's, and from what Yoshi said, that CT will be easier / more accessible than Coil.

3. At release or a few months after (1st or second patch). I'm really talking about a single raid, available on day 1, with 6-13 bosses, at least 2 difficulty levels (and sometimes more, but that's rather in the case of an expansion, you're right about that). That's a fair kind of standard for good endgame MMO's—and we wouldn't want ARR to be anything than a good MMO, right?

4. So you agree with me on point 2 on difficulty CT is casual, and it's good that it is. No argument against that. However "balanced around DF" doesn't imply that you can't pre-make the group. Actually all content available on DF right now is pre-makeable. So it was a fair assumption. And a standard in MMO (you'd think the least is a pre-made, whereas a DF isn't always available). There's no way to spin this otherwise.

As for "new challenge", I made quite a wall of text about that already (above, post #339, the part below the second quote). Short story: yeah it's true, but you can't force that on players because it just doesn't fly in practice most of the time, it's frustrating for many and understandably so, sociologically (please read the post if you wish to answer that point because this 'short story' really doesn't cover my thoughts entirely). Please note that I personally understand and actually share your vision, but I know that this subjective opinion of ours is objectively marginal among players, and it's quite provable or rather understandable 'scientifically' (sociology, psychology).