[Discussion] The Pugilist of the Future!

[Vackashken]

I'd like to see some parse info from people saying Pug does king damage or close.

[Akuun]

I'd like to see some parse info from people saying Pug does king damage or close.

Ya same here, I think the confusion comes from the pugilist ripping hate off of everything else with flurry.

Regardless of the damage, pugilist generates hate through punches, and way to much imho.
It's sad that the only defensive moves I use to tank NMs are featherfoot ii and accomplice (i only use this to rip hate from the current tank (makes sure they don't take it back right away))
Flurries and buffs with w/e weaponskill and i'll get hate every time, even with out of sight (if i don't seriously pace myself)

[RegaDosei]

All very valid points about Pugilist. Essentially, turning PGL in to another main DD wouldn't be an effective balance. We can all agree that ARC and LNC shine when it comes to damage. Let those classes keep their glory. One thing that is important to understand is that the devs are revamping the battle system. One of their primary goals is to fix the hate system. As a 49 PUG I can say that throughout my time playing this job i have been more than an effective tank in several situations. If played right, PUG can stay alive for a very long time and hold hate just the same. I don't think there should be any argument that PUG isn't second in line with GLD when it comes to tanking. However this doesn't go for "end game" NM's. I think the question we should ask ourselves is that,

-After the enmity revamp along with battle components, do we want to see GLD as the only reliable tank?

-After we see changes in stat/gear system (i forget what they're calling it) would we want to see a tank that takes advantage of evasion?

I would like to see PGL become an even more effective tank as the game progresses throughout it's changes. Why take a great class that has potential and scrap it for Ninja?

[Peregrine]

I'd like to see some parse info from people saying Pug does king damage or close.

It doesn't. In a party of 8 on your NMs this is what the parses almost always show:

Pug-18% of damage
MRD-18% of damage
LNC-20% of damge
THM/CON-22% of damage
ARC-25% of damage
GLA-1% of damage
Healer-1% of damage

It's actually remarkably reproduceable, even if the archer dies which is really disappointing.

Note that this isn't a specific party as it doesn't add to 100%. This is just what, on average, each damaging role provides to a total party when they're in a typical balanced party.

I see pugilists and marauders in the same boat--first up on the chopping block of "no point in inviting one" if content gets difficult. They won't be invited to tank, and they won't be invited to DD. Pugs, like Marauders, are great at generic content but not great where the players emphasize, which is endgame and big fights.

I would like to see pugs become the kings of slow and steady DPS like they almost were in XI. None of their "balance ability points" should be wasted on the silly notion that they can tank. No one cares, because that's what gladiators are for.

[Physic]

i think they need to work on the offensive switch of pugilist, the idea is they can adapt to offense or defense, but while we are very strong defensively, IE we are actually a fairly decent tank, we arent hardcore on the Offense side, simian is a defenseive skill, discerning eye requires being damage to be effective, the jarring strike haymaker combo requires being the tank. The only offensive stat skill we have now are flurry, we probably need some more skills that build off being aggressive, ie, something powerful that can go after flurry, or maybe something that procs off criticals, another possibility is something that increases attack the more basic attacks you land.

The idea they seem to originally had was pug can become more offensive or more defensive or be somewhere in the middle, its not always an instant change, but its pretty adaptive. I dont need to see the slow steady dps, id rather some sort of building system, or more combo based stuff, like say
new pug skill,
body break (each hit of flurry or from asuran fists increases your attack (any other skill/attack breaks the effect)(has a limit obviously))
asuran fists (750 tp can be executed after flurry or asuran fists while body break is active)
Death touch (1000-3000 touch opponent vital area doing immense damage and reducing defense, can be executed after asuran fists)

this might not come into full play till much higher level mind you, since it would need 3 powerful skills, but you see the progression youd get from going further and further into an offensive style.
Youd be doing something like heavy>flurry>bodybreak>heavy>flurry>flury>flurry>flurry>asuran>asuran>death touch then youd have to start over again because no tp and death touch doesnt continue body break. Its not something youd be able to do if you have to be too defensive, or throw a second wind or a cure, basically commiting to offense, as well as probably a pretty fun combo to do.

[Arcell]

Pugilists are actually pretty decent off-tanks. Meaning you're used for things like pulling an enemy off a group and holding it for the party to kill, while the Gladiator tanks the rest of it. Or in the instance shit hits the fan and your Gladiator goes down, a Pug can tank in a pinch though it can sometimes be close. I can say this because I've done this and honestly I'd say they shouldn't be main tanks ever if possible. They have the least native tanking abilities of the "tank" classes.

As far as DD goes, it depends on how many targets. Archer and Lancer obviously have it beat in terms of raw damage in both situations. Now the spot for 3rd really goes to Pug in a 1-on-1 fight though in groups they will really fall behind Marauder. Reason being, a properly positioned Marauder can hit the entire group so while each individual hit may be less or even on par the damage adds up to be more over all targets. Not really addressing the mage classes though, just looking at other DoW. Judging by Peregrine's info (if it's accurate) Pug would be dead last out of the DDs in a large group fight.

[Physic]

yeah but being kinda ok at tanking isnt going to get you too far usually, DDs can burn things down, and tanks will be for the big mobs. I honestly think pug should have superior 1 vs 1 fighting skills and be able to go either offensive or defensive much like the old website reccomended.


Buuuut we may lose basic attacks with auto attack anyhow sooo....

[Vackashken]

Not sure what this kinda OK tank is about. Just Wednesday I tanked the Buffalo nm for our LS. I didn't have a hard time at all really. What I can't do is tank NMs that have multiple mobs attached (like Gobby, Mosshorn) because evasion is meaningless since there are so many and when I am hit I can't take too many. 1 on 1 I can tank anything so far.

One the hate algorithm is adjusted and they remove the stamina bar (which I am just GUESSING they will do) I think it will be that much easier to tank. That is if its the direction the class is going to take. I can't but wonder if we will become akin to ninja tanks from 11 if we get more shadows with featherfoot. Again, just conjecture.

[Meleena]

I don't know about you guys, but Ill say again that I started pugilist to be a DD.
Now they might give us the choice if we want to be Tanks or DDs depending on stat distribution and gear choice, but If I had this choice I would go for damage dealing cause that's what I wanna play.
I was very proud of my Monk's damage potential in FF11 and I wanna see this again in FF14...

[Physic]

i want pugilist to be excellent defensiely and offensively, though maybe not at the same time, i dont want it to play like monk though, which ended up becoming the least interactive class as they altered other classes.