BLM Fire II incredibly lack luster

[Taemek]

Also, yes, 120 potency on 10 targets = 1200 potency. 120 x 10 = 1200 in total. If you are hitting each one of those 10 with a single attack, that is. Not sure where you are getting 1200 potency per mob from...that would be 12000 potency?

I suggest you re-read the post I replied too as to how I came about that value. I am not really sure how you are misunderstanding:

No, it is 120 potency per mob that you hit. Otherwise, if what you say where true, BLM would lay waste to WP speed runs because 10+ mobs would = 1200 potency.

Rest of your post is moot.

I honestly cannot believe that peoples reading comprehensions are so bad, unless people are knee jerk replying to the last post in here which is what I hope is more likely the issue.

Finally, again for clarification, AoE DPS is not multiplicative it is accumulative based simply upon amount of targets in the encounter. This is most peoples issue in here as has been pointed out several times.

[Taemek]

Here is what you seem to be missing (or trolling by pretending not to understand, I sincerely hope. Great troll if that the case, good job). It is about using the correct unit. 320 is damage per second, or dps, which I assume is measured in HP/s (hit point per second). When you divide it by 3 mobs, what you have is 320 damage per second per mob, which has unit of HP/(s x mob). So when you divide the total HP by this number, what you end up with is 93.75 mob seconds, not 93.75 seconds. It's not a very useful unit, so the number is kinda meaningless. If you want the total time taken in seconds, you will have to divide it by 3 mobs again, to arrive at ~ 30 s.

To use a less geeky way of explaining it, what you fail to take into account is that you do 100 dps per mob, but you are doing it to 3 mobs at the exact same time. Whereas the one doing single target can only do so one at a time. Here's a detailed example. To make it simpler, assume gcd is exactly 2.5 seconds. Player 1 only uses aoe damage, which is doing 100 aoe dps to each mob (250 dmg to each mob per cast). Player 2 only does single target, which is doing a 300 dps (750 dmg to a single target per cast). They each has to kill 3 mobs, each with 3000 HP. No miss, no crit, no randomness, no proc, never run out of mana, etc. Which one will finish first?

After 2.5 sec (1 gcd):

Player 1 has done 750 damage to mob 1

Mob 1: 2250/3000
Mob 2: 3000/3000
Mob 3: 3000/3000

Player 2 has done 250 damage to all 3 mobs

Mob 1: 2750/3000
Mob 2: 2750/3000
Mob 3: 2750/3000

After 10 seconds

Player 1:

Mob 1: dead
Mob 2: 3000/3000
Mob 3: 3000/3000

Player 2:

Mob 1: 2000/3000
Mob 2: 2000/3000
Mob 3: 2000/3000

After 25 seconds

Player 1:

Mob 1: dead
Mob 2: dead
Mob 3: 1500/3000

Player 2:

Mob 1: 500/3000
Mob 2: 500/3000
Mob 3: 500/3000

I hope you see the pattern now. The total HP is 9000, and both players are doing 300 damage per second total. One is spread across 3 mobs, while the other focuses on one at a time. But that doesn't matter, in each case the total dps is still 300 damage per second, and the fight will be done after 30 seconds.

The reasoning behind my posts have been taken a long way out of context because a lot of people misunderstand how DPS is calculated OR they seemingly are under the general impression that DPS is multiplicative when it is simply accumulative. My original reasoning behind posting in here was because people assumed that anymore then 2 mobs in an encounter warranted AoE spam, I merely pointed out the break point at which AoE DPS becomes efficient as per this post:

This right here clearly tells us you don't understand. Let me spell this out, one more time.

AoE - 10'000hp divide 106.6 dps per mob = 93.8 seconds.

It matters not how many mobs are in an AoE encounter or HP. What matters here is that you know there is 10k hp and at 320 DPS AoE it equals 106.6dps per mob which means the encounter is lasting 93.8 seconds in total to kill ALL 3 MOBS!!!! You can put 10 mobs in here at 10k hp and guess what, the encounter still lasts 93.8 seconds.

There is 3 mobs in the encounter, you do not spilt their hp by a third because there is 3. 3 mobs at 10k hp each = 3 mobs with 10k hp. It does not equal 3 mobs with 3333hp. I don't know how you even come up with that.....320 AoE DPS does not equal 320 dps per mob in the encounter.


ST - **I must stress here these values in this thread is a very vague rotation used to accomplish this DPS value. ST would be more like in the 320+ range as per this post here**

10'000hp divide 350 dps per mob = 28.5 seconds.
x 2 mobs = 57 seconds
x 3 mobs = 85.5 seconds
x 4 mobs = 114 seconds = Break point at which AoEing becomes viable.

Now this is where you seem to be getting confused. AoEing is simply not viable until there is 5 mobs in an encounter because your single target DPS is simply greater then that of your single target AoE dps on the encounter and at anything under 4 mobs, you can kill them faster then AoEing can. Now I can already tell you are going to further misunderstand this.

If you can't wrap your head around something this trivial, I can't help you any further.

Which I then used these posts to further support it was accumulative, not multiplicative:

Either you are trolling or you simply do not understand how DPS is applied across a group of mobs.

Again, for clarity, 320 AoE DPS does not equal 320 DPS per mob in the encounter.


Simple math implies:

Blizzard II hits each mob in an Encounter of 3 mobs for 200 damage each.

200 dmg x 3 mobs / 2.5 cast time = 240 dps encounter wide

240 dps / 3 mobs = 80 dps per mob x 2.5 cast time = 200 dmg per mob


Using the OP's findings:

320 dps / 3 mobs = 106.6 dps per mob x 2.5 cast time = 266 dmg per mob in the encounter.

266 dmg x 3 mobs / 2.5 cast time = 319.2 dps

This is indicative.


You do not measure anything but the time it takes to drop the mobs HP to zero.

You do not cut a mobs HP by a third simple because there is 3. 3 mobs with 10k HP is simply, 3 mobs with 10k hp. You already determined the DPS on one mob in the encounter and since you are hitting all 3 for 106.6dps which is equal to 320 AoE dps, the fight takes 98.3 seconds in total.

Your issue is, you seem to think you are doing 320 dps to each mob in the encounter when you are not. 320 AoE dps is an accumulative amount.

&

Please stoping cutting out my math which proves I am right.....it is very frustrating and secondly, you are missing the point.

320 dps across the collective which is 30k hp = 30'000hp collectively / 320 dps = 93.75 seconds. Again, I did not raise this point I was merely touching on it, however

is the same as:

320dps / 3 mobs = 106.6dps per mob = 10'000hp per mob / 106.6dps = 93.8 seconds.

This is calculating AoE damage.......some of you people really need to learn how to read....

Lastly, how fast a mob dies is how DPS is calculated. If you had no indication of a sessions timeframe there would be no way to measure it.

The conversation simply went down hill from there if it not before. Sorry for all the links.

We are both on the same page in terms of understanding, you simply came in to this conversation on the wrong page in the thread.

[Exstal]

Using AoE for 1~3 mobs is silly. :/

[Taemek]

Using AoE for 1~3 mobs is silly. :/

I agree, as do many others.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

Ah, I think your later posts lead to confusion.
Your numbers are off though. I mean, who even uses a Blizz II spam as a real rotation?
Even the OP only used it as an example to critique Fire II.
Even on that point everyone who tested it after has said that Fire II performs better.

As far as I know the Blizzard II --> Blizzard II --> Fire III --> Flare --> Transpose is the highest dps.
So I don't think you can compare the aoe threshold according to the worst rotation we've got.

[AppleGrocer]

It seems to me that the problem is one of measures rather than arithmetic, potency or dps.
The post that you keep quoting in regards to the break point wherein BLM AoE dps takes over is misleading, or at least I think so. Yes, according to your numbers, if I'm doing 320 AoE dps on 3 mobs and 350 ST dps, of course it will just be faster to single target, there's no question about that. But, I find it hard to believe you're only pulling 320 AoE dps on those 3 mobs if you're capable of that kind of ST output. Hence people's reliance on potency rather than hard DPS numbers. Fire I is 150 potency with a 2.5 second base cast time, Fire II is 100 potency with a 3 second base cast time. With this in mind, create a scenario:

180 second encounter, 1 mob
Fire I:
180/2.5= 72 casts of fire 1
72*150=10800 potency applied to target from Fire I
Firestarter has a 40% proc rate, so out of 72 casts you will be able to cast 29 (rounded) Fire III's at 220 potency (72*.4=28.8), which equals 6336 additional potency assuming none of those are double procs.
72-29= 43 (since using a proc eats a GCD and therefore a fire cast)
6336+(43*150)= 12,786 potency applied to target over the course of 180 seconds after Firestarter procs and assuming infinite mana for fire spam.

Fire II:
180/3= 60 casts of Fire II
60*100= 6000 Potency applied to target over the course of 180 seconds
No procs or anything, simple.

However, if we make it 3 mobs instead:
Fire I:
It's exactly the same, 12,786 potency. Nothing changes.

Fire II:
180/3= 60 casts of Fire II
60*100= 6,000 potency to a single target
But, believe it or not, the fact that Fire II hits multiple targets means that it's potency gets applied to ALL of them. If I hit 1 mob for 400 damage, and another for 400, and another for 400, guess what, I just did 1,200 damage.
6,000*3=18,000 potency applied over the course of 180 seconds.



Now let's assume you're more interested in kill speed rather than damage dealt over a set amount of time, which you should be. Let's assuming the shortest possible encounter that is theoretically most favorable to ST damage:

1 mob with less HP than the damage dealt by a Fire I, but more HP than the damage dealt by Fire II.
Fire I:
Mob is dead in 2.5 seconds

Fire II:
Mob is dead in 6 Seconds

Now with 3 mobs
Fire I:
Mob 1 is dead in 2.5 seconds
Mob 2 is dead in 5 seconds
Mob 3 is dead in 7.5 seconds

Fire II
Mobs 1,2, and 3 are alive after 3 seconds
Mobs 1,2, and 3 are dead after 6 seconds


The gap only gets bigger the more Fire I's it takes to bring down a mob. Anyway you slice it, the AoE break point is 3 mobs.

[Kenji1134]

Ah, I think your later posts lead to confusion.
Your numbers are off though. I mean, who even uses a Blizz II spam as a real rotation?
Even the OP only used it as an example to critique Fire II.
Even on that point everyone who tested it after has said that Fire II performs better.

As far as I know the Blizzard II --> Blizzard II --> Fire III --> Flare --> Transpose is the highest dps.
So I don't think you can compare the aoe threshold according to the worst rotation we've got.

That rotation seems to be tied for highest dps.
B2 is 100, Flare is 468, so ignoring F3 for switching purposes we have:
B2 - B2 - F3 - Flare - Trans - *Tick* - repeat.
(100+100+260*1.8)/(1+1+1+1.6+1) = 668/5.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.
Then we have the 3 F2 - Flare - Transpose - *Tick* - B3 - F3 rotation, at 1026/8.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.

So the first rotation is "faster", and probably better for shorter fights. But the 2nd can be done entirely from range, hence safer.

[ananda]

snip

Whoa, that's really brilliant. I wrote that long post mostly because I was really curious how you are going to turn my post around to still manage to "misunderstand" it. Never thought of how you do it: claim I'm right, but then also re-post your calculations while claiming that your posts essentially mean the same thing as mine and are just taken out of context (despite the fact that they have different conclusion).

Well done, that was a trolling masterclass there

[PessimiStick]

That rotation seems to be tied for highest dps.
B2 is 100, Flare is 468, so ignoring F3 for switching purposes we have:
B2 - B2 - F3 - Flare - Trans - *Tick* - repeat.
(100+100+260*1.8)/(1+1+1+1.6+1) = 668/5.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.
Then we have the 3 F2 - Flare - Transpose - *Tick* - B3 - F3 rotation, at 1026/8.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.

So the first rotation is "faster", and probably better for shorter fights. But the 2nd can be done entirely from range, hence safer.

Flare is 1 GCD in the flare rotation, not 1.6. Potency for your calcs should be 133.6 p/GCD for the Flare-only rotation. I did the math for this in another thread previously. It's the highest AE DPS rotation we have if you don't get the F3 cast time bug a lot (which I think is latency related), and you don't mash transpose.

[Shadowzanon]

snipp

Are you taking into play that the 1st and well proven highest dps rotation we go all spells are cast under the global cool down. ?
when i am doing the b2, b2, fire3, flare , transpose, repeat. b2 takes 1.90 sec to cast while my gcd is at 2.38, fire 3 is at just a bit over a second and flare ends up just under 2 seconds due to double dipping. this means my dps is at every gcd and i can pull it all off even while waiting for a tic of mana before i transpose again.
Fire 2 is at 2.86 to cast. thus over the gcd if you are not swift casting flare thats 3.81 sec which is over the gcd, hardcasting blizzard 3 is at 3.33 seconds again over the gcd. I may not be understanding how you are doing your math. can you atleast clarify me that you are not calulating the 2nd rotation you mention at the gcd but at the time it takes to cast each spell since they are over the gcd the first rotation has to be calculated at the gcd since it is always under.

To clarify it takes 10 seconds to pull off the b2, b2, f3, flare, transpose , repeat. even waiting for the mana tic it remains about 12 seconds to be able to continue so in ideal situations you repeat ever 12 seconds. (adding a 2 second wait for mana tic)

Doing the other, taking in the factor you are double dipping f2 at the start (just to be fair since the above is taking in you just flared and transposed before starting. that would be 1.50 seconds for the 1st fire 2, thus 2.5 gcd, 3.00 x2 for the next 2 fire 2s, then 4 seconds for flare, transpose, wait a tic, 3.50 seconds for b3 then 1.75 seconds for f3, thus 2.50 for gcd. Thats 18.50 rounded to 20.50 (2 second for mana tic )seconds due to waiting for the mana tic.

Doing the first rotation you can do it 3 times totaling 36 seconds vs doing 2 times the other rotation in 41 seconds.

This is what I am trying to understand, did you calculate taking into consideration the time the spells will take over the gcd if they are longer to cast than the gcd or are you assuming the 2nd rotation dps is based on the gcds excluding the extra time added by longer casting spells.?