New jobs upcoming, new tanks?

[Gandora]

SAM could be a tank, but I iimagine it would be very similar to warrior in play style

I would love to See Samuri come back as a Tank.

Why does ppl want potential DDs to become tanks? 1st DRK now SAM... seriously?

I know it wasnt a tank in pass games but would be cool if they were. Could make them High Parry and Deflection Tank. Their Subs can be PUG & LNC. I know what your thinking...

So you would give a pseudo tank a DDs subclass just for the sake of one evasion boost job ability? Ignoring the 3 others job ability that are more or less DDs oriented? logic.

[Kitru]

No, just no! DRK is a damage dealing class, it has been since the begining & should stay that way.. remeber that its counterpart is the Paladin which IS a tank.

Uhhhh... No?

If you actually look at the various incarnations of Dark Knights over games other than XI, they've actually been a very tanky class:

• The very first Dark Knight is Leon from FF2 who is a one of your most durable characters, with high hp and defense. The only "damage dealer" kind of thing he gets is access to Black Magic, which is no more anti-tank within the confines of the classless FF systems than PLD getting White Magic.
• Cecil, in FF4, is *still* super tanky while a Dark Knight, what with high defense, hp, and heavy armor. The only "damage dealer" aspect he gets is the whole sacrifice-hp-to-increase-damage/deal-damage thing, which still doesn't preclude his tankiness given the fact that he is still your most durable character *and* it's another of the FF games where you don't have anything resembling a trinity construct so even the durable characters are supposed to be throwing out as much damage as possible.
• In FFX-2, Dark Knight is, once again, a highly durable class: high hp and high defense. The same explanation of hp-sacrifice as applied to Cecil applies here.
• In FFT (which the devs seem to be drawing a lot of their inspiration from), Dark Knight is *explicitly* a tank class: heavy armor, shields, knight swords, and an at-will hp regain ability that makes them virtually impossible to kill. Gafgarion is one of your best tanks outright.

The only incarnation of DRK that is an explicit damage dealer rather than following the model for tanks that the devs have been drawing from to turn into tanks for ARR is FFXI, which is nowhere *close* to "all games". At worst, DRK was a tank that used BLM instead of WHM. In general, it was a tank that had the option to sacrifice hp to become a damage dealer for a short period.

It's important to keep in mind that in every single Final Fantasy, with the exception of XI, *there was no trinity*. Everyone was expected to deal damage and take hits. If your only definition of "tank" is "has cover" then the only tank that would be around would be PLD, which is a *terrible* idea for an MMO since having only a single option for a role is boring as hell. When you're pulling classes from games that don't have a trinity and assigning them roles to fit *into* a trinity, you have to look at attributes other than "takes damage for other people" (especially given the fact that oftentimes the characters aren't actually meant to be balanced against one another); you look for high defense, high hp, and a lower than average damage dealing capacity compared to the explicit damage dealers (Cecil as DK compared to Edge or Yang; DK dressphere compared to Gunner or Thief; Dark Knight in FFT compared to monk, lancer, archer, or ninja).

Now, as to what classes actually fit this mold, there are a few of them: Berserker (high hp, high evasion; as a tank, likely based off of PGL), Samurai (self-buffing, parry/evasion; likely based off of new class entirely), Dark Knight (hp draining, high defense, high hp; as a tank, likely based off of new class), Spellblade/Mystic Knight (self buffs, magical sword attacks; likely based off of new class, potentially treed off of the same one as Red Mage), and Templar/Defender (heavy armor, high hp, self buffing; likely based off of LNC).

Considering how many potential jobs there are in the FF series overall and the need to maintain a decent tank/DPS/healer class ratio in *this* game, I find it unlikely that most of those would be implemented as anything other than a tank, since it would be severely cutting into the number of prexisting FF-jobs that could actually make sensible tanks (and, no, Ninja is not a "sensible" tank; FFXI is so anomalous compared to the rest of the FF series that you can safely ignore everything that it did with its jobs because so many of them depart so very heavily from the original implementations). The same holds true for finding new healers, since it's not like there are a lot of them other than White Mage in previous implementations: if it's a job that was designed providing support, it'll likely be brought in as a healer even if that class didn't originally have any real healing capability. DPS is likely going to be a role that gets assigned to a job when it can't feasibly be turned into a tank or healer.

[Gandora]

snip

After reading all of that I might understand that because of hight HP & heavy armor a job become a tank? let alone all the others stats/abilities? Did other jobs get cover other then PLD, do they all get any form of shield/protection, does they have all a native high defense, the answer is no.

Also, you used others FF games as a reference, use FF5, make each chars of your PT a different job, lets say Bartz as BLU, Lenna as PLD, Galuf as MNK, & the pirate's girl as BLM, aggro a fight & let them be beaten down, you will see that even if there is no trinity some jobs cope with damage better then others. Making your argument irelevant.

DRK is a DD class, in FF5 its not even a playable job, its a storyline job where Cecil change into PLD for the sake of the story, try it in FF5 you will see. I have not played 1 & 2 since a long time so I can not say, but I do play 3 - 4 - 5 on my android when I am on break @work so for these I know.

[Kitru]

Also, you used others FF games as a reference, use FF5, make each chars of your PT a different job, lets say Bartz as BLU, Lenna as PLD, Galuf as MNK, & the pirate's girl as BLM, aggro a fight & let them be beaten down, you will see that even if there is no trinity some jobs cope with damage better then others. Making your argument irelevant.

That's the entire point of my argument. There isn't a trinity so you have to look at the relative durability of each class to determine whether it's a tank. Arguing that DRK is a DPS class based upon an argument that doesn't even *involve* Dark Knight just shows that you're not understanding it and quite possibly not even understanding what you're talking about yourself.

DRK is a DD class, in FF5 its not even a playable job, its a storyline job where Cecil change into PLD for the sake of the story, try it in FF5 you will see. I have not played 1 & 2 since a long time so I can not say, but I do play 3 - 4 - 5 on my android when I am on break @work so for these I know.

I've played all the FF games numerous times and I still find it amusing that the only game that you're using as your supporting evidence is FF4, which still has Dark Knight Cecil as the most durable character in your party up until he upgrades and turns into a PLD.

Try actually doing what you're telling me to do, only try doing it with a game that actually *has* Dark Knight as a playable job rather than arbitrarily extrapolating information from a single game that doesn't even fulfill the conditions of the comparative study that you're expecting: you can easily do it in FFX-2 and FFT. Hell, in the remake of FFT you can actually get Dark Knight on characters other than Gafgarion. If you *do* you'll see that Dark Knight actually *does* qualify as a tank-style class for the exact reasons I point out and that you somehow expected to disprove my point, just like the rest of the classes that I referenced.

Dark Knight has *always* been a highly durable class, which means that it is entirely likely that it will come into the game as a tank class. Just because you want to bring up games where it doesn't exist doesn't mean anything remotely close to proving your point.

There are 2 ways that DRK could be introduced into ARR: as a DPS variation job for GLA (it becomes DPS not because DRK makes more sense as a DPS class but rather because you *really* don't want to double up on tank jobs for a single class) or as a tank job attached to an entirely new class. As I said before, and you apparently missed, it's just as much because Dark Knight makes more sense as a tank job than as a DPS job on the basis of the previous implementations of the job as it is that there aren't that many jobs that could feasibly become tanks and the devs need to preserve the ratio of tanks to DPS to healers to prevent the already unequal distribution of roles from becoming even *more* unequal.

[Gardes]

Paladin's shield has become a bit too passive imo. You have the standard shield bash and a counter move with a largely useless effect on serious battles (full resists).

If sam becomes a tank, I'd like it to rely on parry much more with parry boosting stance that allows the samurai to parry every direct damage type possible (including magic?) and then reactive/counter skills triggering off a parry for enmity generation. Sam should also have a very flexible combo web with multiple paths and letting him go back and forth along the combo lines for different effects. Like having damage type debuffs that a samurai can use, depending on party composition. e.g.: sam joins a df light party, he meets two caster dps, decides to use magic defense down combos.

[Gandora]

Snip

When I said "some job will cope better then others" I was obviously pointing out the PLD in the party. You said that the only game where DRK was a DD was in XI, then you can only mention 1 FF where it was more likely? a tank. Logic?

Just because you want to bring up games where it doesn't exist doesn't mean anything remotely close to proving your point.

talking so much bullshit, you came with all the names, only 2 i mentionned were 4 & 5 to prove my point.

There are 2 ways that DRK could be introduced into ARR: as a DPS variation job for GLA (it becomes DPS not because DRK makes more sense as a DPS class but rather because you *really* don't want to double up on tank jobs for a single class) or as a tank job attached to an entirely new class.

There is also another way, which is about making a new class using whatever they want to introduce (I.E Great sword) then they can make the class go into the jobs such as DRK or RUN possibly. alike SMN & SCH.

Now here's my advice, what about you stop writting books full of bs on the forum & start getting real arguments?

[Kenji1134]

I think a more pressing issue for SE isnt so much "What job do we want to make into a tank", its "How do we give each tank a unique feel?"

This leads to the fundamental definition of "What Makes A Tank"
1. EHP - What is the biggest raw hit you can take?
2. EHPS - How hard to we have to heal you after you take that huge hit?
3. Aggro - Can you hold aggro off of us, within reason?
4. Defensive Abilities - What can you do to survive an "Oh Shit!" situation?

Lets take a look at PLD and WAR within this framework.

PLD
1. EHP is gained by taking 80% of normal damage, making EHP = 1.25x HP.
2. EHPS is indirectly gained by mitigating the incoming damage, so each heal is worth 25% more.
3. PLD has strong ST aggro, and strong AoE aggro in the right situation.
4. PLD has a boatload of defensive CD's.

WAR - In its current state
1. EHP is gained by simply multiplying HP by 1.25x.
2. EHPS is gained via Wrath stacks, up to a total of 1.15x, but is consumed for other abilities, which also heal, but do not scale as well against stronger bosses.
3. WAR has strong ST aggro, and generally more consistent aoe aggro than PLD in most situations.
4. WAR is lacking in terms of cooldowns... period.

Now if we want to introduce a new tank, we need to give them something to suit each of the above categories. TBH Aggro is not a huge issue, give every tank access to a MP and/or TP based aoe hate builder, and tweak the hate mod up on some skills and everything is fine.

Cooldowns again are a secondary concern. Typically a tank's defensive cooldown should have one of the following effects:
Increase healing received.
Decrease incoming damage by a % (dynamic mitigation).
Decrease incoming damage by an amount (Stoneskin).
Decrease "ALL" incoming damage by an amount for a period of time (static mitigation).
Decrease damage output of all enemies attacking you... to prevent creating a "helper tank" role.
Increase evasion by a %... a very high %... effectively dodge/block next X attacks...
Increase defense stats by a %.

The biggest questions when making a "unique" tank are how do we give them comparable EHP and EHPS, while making them different?
Well we have % based mit, reactive healing on damage, reduce incoming damage by a static value, avoid most hits (tends to end badly)... or just have a metric TON of HP... with no healing mod.

This becomes more complicated when you consider how these methods of reducing incoming damage scale based on the incoming damage.

% based, or dynamic, mitigation is very reliable. PLD has 20% mit. On a 100 damage hit, it reduces it by 20%. On a 10,000 damage hit, it reduces it by 20%. On an unblockable, unavoidable hit... reduces it by 20%.
# based, or static, mitigation is a lot more situational. Atm WAR has attacks that heal it for some amount, regardless of the WAR's hp or incoming damage. This means weaker enemies feel weaker, stronger enemies feel stronger.
Another option is a passive Stoneskin-like trait, where we simply reduce incoming damage by X, where X is some % of your max HP. This can be gamebreaking since a well geared tank would go into a low level dungeon and literally take 0 damage. On the other hand, that same tank's amazing "DMG-300" passive Stoneskin is fairly useless against Titan's 3000 damage Mountain Buster... for example.
Yet another option is reactive % healing. Tank gets hit, tank heal for X% of the incoming damage. This can work a lot like regular % mit, but it does not have the buffer of softening a killshot down to a non-killshot. Now if we dont want to make this % healing work "too" much like % mit, then instead of having it be X% of incoming damage, make it X% of HP... Now we have the Passive-Stoneskin mit, but it applies after the hit, not before.
Lets see, what else can we do...
I mentioned having a tank with a TON of HP, and no healing mod. I am talking 1.5-2x normal tank HP, and equal defense. This tank is the Hulk, with no armor, and is a massive mana-sponge for healers... Great for Stoneskin though.
For this kind of tank to work, it'd need an ability that returns mana back to the group based on how much damage the tank took. This may be good for speed runs, since with THIS MUCH hp, the tank will have longer periods where they dont "need" a heal, so the healer can dps.

All in all, I think you guys see my point.
It would be pretty easy for SE to make a new tank class and just rehash the "tried and true" mitigation mechanics. But I imagine they want to be a little more creative... without creating a monster like XI's Ninja which can trivialize content.

PS. I would really like to see both WAR and PLD... hell every "tank", get a "Weapon Defense" ability, which is basically an instant, no-cost, tank version of Stoneskin, for 30% of your max HP, on a 30-60s CD.

[Tribunus]

If sam becomes a tank

No no no ><

What is everyones fascination with having samurai become a tank!? It has never been anything of the sort in any iteration of Final Fantasy, it must be DPS. SE can easily design new classes/jobs that have never appeared before, but if they are going to use names of jobs from previous games then those jobs should fill the same role.

[Kitru]

When I said "some job will cope better then others" I was obviously pointing out the PLD in the party. You said that the only game where DRK was a DD was in XI, then you can only mention 1 FF where it was more likely? a tank. Logic?

I mentioned *4* FFs where Dark Knight fulfills the qualities that are tapped for tank jobs. You brought up one game where the Dark Knight doesn't even exist and one that I *already* used to explain how Dark Knight is a tank rather than a damage dealer. Are you even paying attention?

Also, holy crap, your syntax and grammar are almost painfully hard to parse for your intent.

talking so much bullshit, you came with all the names, only 2 i mentionned were 4 & 5 to prove my point.

You're seriously arguing that the fact that you have *fewer* games to reference to support your claims while simultaneously having them be *weaker* examples, since one doesn't even *have* Dark Knight and the other already *has* Dark Knight as a tanky class? Do you even understand what you're saying here?

There is also another way, which is about making a new class using whatever they want to introduce (I.E Great sword) then they can make the class go into the jobs such as DRK or RUN possibly. alike SMN & SCH.

Now here's my advice, what about you stop writting books full of bs on the forum & start getting real arguments?

Are you even sure you understand what actually *comprises* a legitimate argument? I gave you explicit examples that categorically disproved your claim that "DRK is a damage dealing class, it has been since the begining". In the beginning, the Dark Knight had more in common with a tank than a damage dealer. As it progressed, it continued to have more in common with a tank. In a single later case (Final Fantasy XI) that is notorious concerning how poorly it implemented classes relative to their historical design, it was turned into damage dealer.

If you honestly think that I'm full of BS, try and actually bring up some evidence rather than supplying conjecture that is either completely and totally inapplicable (your "evidence" concerning FF4 and FF5) or completely and utterly *untrue* (you claiming that Dark Knight has always been a damage dealing class). You may not like the fact that I actually enjoy discussing the game (and series) as much as playing it, but, seriously, if you're going to try and tell me that I'm getting something wrong, try and make sure that you're not the one that has been making up your entire argument as it progressed.

[Thunderz]

Why look at those roles to be a tank (SAM, DRK) and not look at jobs in past FF that are tanks (Rune knight, etc)

srsly I want SAM and DRK badass DD-ness back not some silly tank class (tbh I don't think we need any more tank classes)

We need more heavy hitters and support