New jobs upcoming, new tanks?

[Gandora]

There are deflection tanks (i.e cover, but for a party), evade tanks (ninjas), pure mag mitigation tanks, berserk tanks (time based aggro) etc. It just up to SE to decide how to deal with it. Personally I'd love DRK to be a tank since the general idea is already implemented in warriors. Could be like Advanced Jobs where you need a warrior 30 and paladin 30 to unlock.

No, just no! DRK is a damage dealing class, it has been since the begining & should stay that way.. remeber that its counterpart is the Paladin which IS a tank.

Also WAR being a tank is already awefull enough.

[Kitru]

No, just no! DRK is a damage dealing class, it has been since the begining & should stay that way.. remeber that its counterpart is the Paladin which IS a tank.

Uhhhh... No?

If you actually look at the various incarnations of Dark Knights over games other than XI, they've actually been a very tanky class:

• The very first Dark Knight is Leon from FF2 who is a one of your most durable characters, with high hp and defense. The only "damage dealer" kind of thing he gets is access to Black Magic, which is no more anti-tank within the confines of the classless FF systems than PLD getting White Magic.
• Cecil, in FF4, is *still* super tanky while a Dark Knight, what with high defense, hp, and heavy armor. The only "damage dealer" aspect he gets is the whole sacrifice-hp-to-increase-damage/deal-damage thing, which still doesn't preclude his tankiness given the fact that he is still your most durable character *and* it's another of the FF games where you don't have anything resembling a trinity construct so even the durable characters are supposed to be throwing out as much damage as possible.
• In FFX-2, Dark Knight is, once again, a highly durable class: high hp and high defense. The same explanation of hp-sacrifice as applied to Cecil applies here.
• In FFT (which the devs seem to be drawing a lot of their inspiration from), Dark Knight is *explicitly* a tank class: heavy armor, shields, knight swords, and an at-will hp regain ability that makes them virtually impossible to kill. Gafgarion is one of your best tanks outright.

The only incarnation of DRK that is an explicit damage dealer rather than following the model for tanks that the devs have been drawing from to turn into tanks for ARR is FFXI, which is nowhere *close* to "all games". At worst, DRK was a tank that used BLM instead of WHM. In general, it was a tank that had the option to sacrifice hp to become a damage dealer for a short period.

It's important to keep in mind that in every single Final Fantasy, with the exception of XI, *there was no trinity*. Everyone was expected to deal damage and take hits. If your only definition of "tank" is "has cover" then the only tank that would be around would be PLD, which is a *terrible* idea for an MMO since having only a single option for a role is boring as hell. When you're pulling classes from games that don't have a trinity and assigning them roles to fit *into* a trinity, you have to look at attributes other than "takes damage for other people" (especially given the fact that oftentimes the characters aren't actually meant to be balanced against one another); you look for high defense, high hp, and a lower than average damage dealing capacity compared to the explicit damage dealers (Cecil as DK compared to Edge or Yang; DK dressphere compared to Gunner or Thief; Dark Knight in FFT compared to monk, lancer, archer, or ninja).

Now, as to what classes actually fit this mold, there are a few of them: Berserker (high hp, high evasion; as a tank, likely based off of PGL), Samurai (self-buffing, parry/evasion; likely based off of new class entirely), Dark Knight (hp draining, high defense, high hp; as a tank, likely based off of new class), Spellblade/Mystic Knight (self buffs, magical sword attacks; likely based off of new class, potentially treed off of the same one as Red Mage), and Templar/Defender (heavy armor, high hp, self buffing; likely based off of LNC).

Considering how many potential jobs there are in the FF series overall and the need to maintain a decent tank/DPS/healer class ratio in *this* game, I find it unlikely that most of those would be implemented as anything other than a tank, since it would be severely cutting into the number of prexisting FF-jobs that could actually make sensible tanks (and, no, Ninja is not a "sensible" tank; FFXI is so anomalous compared to the rest of the FF series that you can safely ignore everything that it did with its jobs because so many of them depart so very heavily from the original implementations). The same holds true for finding new healers, since it's not like there are a lot of them other than White Mage in previous implementations: if it's a job that was designed providing support, it'll likely be brought in as a healer even if that class didn't originally have any real healing capability. DPS is likely going to be a role that gets assigned to a job when it can't feasibly be turned into a tank or healer.

[Gandora]

snip

After reading all of that I might understand that because of hight HP & heavy armor a job become a tank? let alone all the others stats/abilities? Did other jobs get cover other then PLD, do they all get any form of shield/protection, does they have all a native high defense, the answer is no.

Also, you used others FF games as a reference, use FF5, make each chars of your PT a different job, lets say Bartz as BLU, Lenna as PLD, Galuf as MNK, & the pirate's girl as BLM, aggro a fight & let them be beaten down, you will see that even if there is no trinity some jobs cope with damage better then others. Making your argument irelevant.

DRK is a DD class, in FF5 its not even a playable job, its a storyline job where Cecil change into PLD for the sake of the story, try it in FF5 you will see. I have not played 1 & 2 since a long time so I can not say, but I do play 3 - 4 - 5 on my android when I am on break @work so for these I know.

[Kitru]

Also, you used others FF games as a reference, use FF5, make each chars of your PT a different job, lets say Bartz as BLU, Lenna as PLD, Galuf as MNK, & the pirate's girl as BLM, aggro a fight & let them be beaten down, you will see that even if there is no trinity some jobs cope with damage better then others. Making your argument irelevant.

That's the entire point of my argument. There isn't a trinity so you have to look at the relative durability of each class to determine whether it's a tank. Arguing that DRK is a DPS class based upon an argument that doesn't even *involve* Dark Knight just shows that you're not understanding it and quite possibly not even understanding what you're talking about yourself.

DRK is a DD class, in FF5 its not even a playable job, its a storyline job where Cecil change into PLD for the sake of the story, try it in FF5 you will see. I have not played 1 & 2 since a long time so I can not say, but I do play 3 - 4 - 5 on my android when I am on break @work so for these I know.

I've played all the FF games numerous times and I still find it amusing that the only game that you're using as your supporting evidence is FF4, which still has Dark Knight Cecil as the most durable character in your party up until he upgrades and turns into a PLD.

Try actually doing what you're telling me to do, only try doing it with a game that actually *has* Dark Knight as a playable job rather than arbitrarily extrapolating information from a single game that doesn't even fulfill the conditions of the comparative study that you're expecting: you can easily do it in FFX-2 and FFT. Hell, in the remake of FFT you can actually get Dark Knight on characters other than Gafgarion. If you *do* you'll see that Dark Knight actually *does* qualify as a tank-style class for the exact reasons I point out and that you somehow expected to disprove my point, just like the rest of the classes that I referenced.

Dark Knight has *always* been a highly durable class, which means that it is entirely likely that it will come into the game as a tank class. Just because you want to bring up games where it doesn't exist doesn't mean anything remotely close to proving your point.

There are 2 ways that DRK could be introduced into ARR: as a DPS variation job for GLA (it becomes DPS not because DRK makes more sense as a DPS class but rather because you *really* don't want to double up on tank jobs for a single class) or as a tank job attached to an entirely new class. As I said before, and you apparently missed, it's just as much because Dark Knight makes more sense as a tank job than as a DPS job on the basis of the previous implementations of the job as it is that there aren't that many jobs that could feasibly become tanks and the devs need to preserve the ratio of tanks to DPS to healers to prevent the already unequal distribution of roles from becoming even *more* unequal.

[Gandora]

Snip

When I said "some job will cope better then others" I was obviously pointing out the PLD in the party. You said that the only game where DRK was a DD was in XI, then you can only mention 1 FF where it was more likely? a tank. Logic?

Just because you want to bring up games where it doesn't exist doesn't mean anything remotely close to proving your point.

talking so much bullshit, you came with all the names, only 2 i mentionned were 4 & 5 to prove my point.

There are 2 ways that DRK could be introduced into ARR: as a DPS variation job for GLA (it becomes DPS not because DRK makes more sense as a DPS class but rather because you *really* don't want to double up on tank jobs for a single class) or as a tank job attached to an entirely new class.

There is also another way, which is about making a new class using whatever they want to introduce (I.E Great sword) then they can make the class go into the jobs such as DRK or RUN possibly. alike SMN & SCH.

Now here's my advice, what about you stop writting books full of bs on the forum & start getting real arguments?

[Kitru]

When I said "some job will cope better then others" I was obviously pointing out the PLD in the party. You said that the only game where DRK was a DD was in XI, then you can only mention 1 FF where it was more likely? a tank. Logic?

I mentioned *4* FFs where Dark Knight fulfills the qualities that are tapped for tank jobs. You brought up one game where the Dark Knight doesn't even exist and one that I *already* used to explain how Dark Knight is a tank rather than a damage dealer. Are you even paying attention?

Also, holy crap, your syntax and grammar are almost painfully hard to parse for your intent.

talking so much bullshit, you came with all the names, only 2 i mentionned were 4 & 5 to prove my point.

You're seriously arguing that the fact that you have *fewer* games to reference to support your claims while simultaneously having them be *weaker* examples, since one doesn't even *have* Dark Knight and the other already *has* Dark Knight as a tanky class? Do you even understand what you're saying here?

There is also another way, which is about making a new class using whatever they want to introduce (I.E Great sword) then they can make the class go into the jobs such as DRK or RUN possibly. alike SMN & SCH.

Now here's my advice, what about you stop writting books full of bs on the forum & start getting real arguments?

Are you even sure you understand what actually *comprises* a legitimate argument? I gave you explicit examples that categorically disproved your claim that "DRK is a damage dealing class, it has been since the begining". In the beginning, the Dark Knight had more in common with a tank than a damage dealer. As it progressed, it continued to have more in common with a tank. In a single later case (Final Fantasy XI) that is notorious concerning how poorly it implemented classes relative to their historical design, it was turned into damage dealer.

If you honestly think that I'm full of BS, try and actually bring up some evidence rather than supplying conjecture that is either completely and totally inapplicable (your "evidence" concerning FF4 and FF5) or completely and utterly *untrue* (you claiming that Dark Knight has always been a damage dealing class). You may not like the fact that I actually enjoy discussing the game (and series) as much as playing it, but, seriously, if you're going to try and tell me that I'm getting something wrong, try and make sure that you're not the one that has been making up your entire argument as it progressed.

[Fuuljo]

Now, as to what classes actually fit this mold, there are a few of them: Berserker (high hp, high evasion; as a tank, likely based off of PGL)

I hate to burst your bubble but Berserker is far from a tank. Not to mention the fact that the Berserker's iconic core skill, Berserk, is already utilized as a non cross class ability for Marauders. I think if Puglists were to get a tank Job, which is more than likely considering their skill set, it would be something more like a white monk or something that doesn't stray too far from the fist fighting discipline.

Also Dark Knights would make terrible tanks. We already have a tank that can self heal and it isn't even that great, just imagine what a tank that does the opposite would be like.

[Kadesh]

Everyone who is saying FFXI DRK was aggression only that was only during 75 cap content. DRK got a Total of 7 defensive skills after they raised the level cap to 99.

• Drain, a self heal
• Drain 2, a self heal that boosted max hp
• Dark seal, increased the amount of hp you could drain through accuracy
• Nether Void, increased the amount of hp you could drain
• Dread Spikes, drained hp every time you took damage and gets a bonus from max hp increase
• Catastrophe, weapon skill that drains hp
• Entropy, weapon skill that drains mp.

So you could do combos like this.
Dark Seal > Drain to full hp > Nether Void > Drain 2 to max hp +20% > Dread spikes > weapons skill of your choice.

Stacking Nether Void onto Drain 2 then dread Spike with that hp bonus did a ton of mitigation, and If you needed more mp to cast drains and dread spikes you had Entropy to get mp back. Or if you took a few hits and still have enough mp you could top off your hp with Catastrophe.

[Gandora]

Everyone who is saying FFXI DRK was aggression only that was only during 75 cap content. DRK got a Total of 7 defensive skills after they raised the level cap to 99.


Stacking Nether Void onto Drain 2 then dread Spike with that hp bonus did a ton of mitigation, and If you needed more mp to cast drains and dread spikes you had Entropy to get mp back. Or if you took a few hits and still have enough mp you could top off your hp with Catastrophe.

Well, even with all of that no one brought DRK to tank, not even something as easy as Briareus or Fafnir at Lv99, somes "might" have done it, does not mean its the way to go. Dread spike had an aweful recast & a very short duration. Also did you mention Catastrophe? lol Its like saying a PLD need Holy shield to tank in FFXIV.

Someone was saying "DRK can be a tank which can use its HP to deal damage." Because a tank is supposed to burn his HP down to deal damages, especialy on boss such as Titan, right guys?

[Kadesh]

Well, even with all of that no one brought DRK to tank, not even something as easy as Briareus or Fafnir at Lv99

No one is saying at 99 that DRK is a better tank than PLD or NIN, but yes I would tank low lv Abyssea NM or Dynamis boss if no one else was around.

Also did you mention Catastrophe? lol Its like saying a PLD need Holy shield to tank in FFXIV.

A lot of people have relic scyth now, its not a big deal. Also they are making it so you dont need relic to use this weapon skill.


Also the point wasn't DRK is a tank in FFXI at 99, the point is DRK have several deffensive abilities at 99 where most people are saying they have none.