Item duping is killing Crafters

[OptimalZedd]

I m not insulting u

try to answer that with your logic :

why selling all final item at same price around 500k ? since some use 9 , some 18 , some 27

its not simple undercutting, you re the one stating that blindly

u want i link the exploit site to weight my saying and getting banned ?

like the shard exploit, many people knows there was a exploit to produce shard infinitely

so the price started to drop on the market, but by your logic, its normal cause its just people putting lower price , thats the game... supply&demand blabla

how can you prove the exploit ? by using it ?

you re just playing the devil's advocate, u just wanted to show your superior intellect of understanding economy

Maybe SE find a way to not exploit the "crafting without mat" exploit , but the people havent been banned, and i find its a serious problem

but well if nobody cares... np , let the game like this

[MithrasInvictus]

u dont have logic...

If the item you trying to make will cost you 4M to make , of course u gonna sell it at 5M

People buy vanya legs at 1.7M cause thats the price

You are the one lacking logic here, I'm afraid. No crafter in their right mind is going to buy ALL of the 2* materials to make something as the margin would be incredibly small for something that you can't move very quickly. We farm most, if not all, of our materials to maintain higher margins and returns on items like that.

[OptimalZedd]

you re not speaking of logic , you re speaking of other way to get your mats. i have 120M and i dont farm all my mats , its taking way too much time if you selling 5~ piece a day

you too you are blind, truly

look ok i farm the Potash, 27 to make a vanya legs ( an example), 27 x 125 = 3375 philo, 12h~

a vanya hat 9 x 125 = 1125 philo, 4h~

so now , you gonna sell item from 12h farm same price as 4h farm

you cannot see there s something strange ? and its not because of people going for lower price as a strat but people really stupid because they dont even know the recipe, they just craft blindy

[MentalPoison]

I cant even understand his posts anymore, the only part that is even legible is where he keeps saying noone but him has logic.

I tried to explain it to him, for tome items the price drop is coming from entire FCs farming and funneling into a crafter. He is still confused, stamping odd math into everything as if it makes sense. Everyone but him is stupid, without logic, and blah blah blah.

I guess he really cant understand that while HE alone farms for 12h, a group working together only takes 4h to do the same. Hence the 4h prices.

Also the title of the thread is how duping items is killing crafters, yet he claims to have 120 mil. Like I said, this is an open and shut case of a greedy crafter getting undercut by organized groups.

Lastly I keep answering his question of "Why same price", but he refuses it because it doesnt make sense to him. For instance on my server DST tassets should go for 800-1m, they require 2 tome items. However they go for 500-700k, because there isnt much demand for them and nobody wants to sit on them forever.

Considering the 2 tome items are FREE for organized FC crafters, thats 500-700k in profits. They of course sell in tandem with other pieces, which stay steady at around 400-600! This means, GASP, the item that costs 2 mats is selling around the same as the item that takes 1!

*gasp, feints, mind blown, no way jose!*

[Rainsford]

*snip*

I seriously think you're missing the point.

This happened recently on Diabolos. A player transferred from Coeurl (could tell based on the names on his crafting gear) with a 50 Weaver, 50 Leatherworker, 18 Glad, 23 Miner and not even a mount registered on his account. Suddenly, every 2-star weaver/leatherworker item had him posting 2 copies of NQ and HQ versions at seemingly arbitrary prices. HQ Vanya leggings for 444,444, NQ Vanya Leggings for 222,222. Gryphonskin ringsfor 555,555, with NQ ones for 333,333. This one a server where crafting mats were regularly selling for 35-40k on the AH.

Now, this crafter had no materia socketed in his gear, and had no other crafting classes leveled, yet flooded the markets with these items (all with his signature). If you're going to stand by the idea that it was a quiet FC pooling their resources, how foolish would they have to be? Why not just sell the mats and make more gil? Why craft so many worthless NQ 2-star items? Why not have the crafting mule actually socket materia/level his other classes to 15? Why no logic in what they priced at?

It just makes no sense. Of course, about 5 days later, all the items disappeared off the AH, never to be seen again. I'm left to assume that SE banned the account, but I guess we'll never know.

To respond to your edit, I don't understand how you think that people selling tome items for less than the cost to make consistently makes any sense. It's like me drilling for oil that I can sell for $20 a barrel but, instead, converting it to petrol and then selling it for $15 a barrel. When the price to sell raw materials is higher than the price of the finished products, why would you ever sell the finished product and not the raw materials?

[OptimalZedd]

thank you , someone with logic...

[Grey_Cain]

This happened recently on Diabolos. A player transferred from Coeurl (could tell based on the names on his crafting gear) with a 50 Weaver, 50 Leatherworker, 18 Glad, 23 Miner and not even a mount registered on his account. Suddenly, every 2-star weaver/leatherworker item had him posting 2 copies of NQ and HQ versions at seemingly arbitrary prices. HQ Vanya leggings for 444,444, NQ Vanya Leggings for 222,222. Gryphonskin ringsfor 555,555, with NQ ones for 333,333. This one a server where crafting mats were regularly selling for 35-40k on the AH.

So, to start, we have a character new to your server with items carried over from his previous server. Possibly even with items ripped from his previous FC's bank, because there's no reason to believe a crafter like this should be a good person. And his level 18 GLA isn't high enough to unlock a mount. And this is related to the context of an item-duper, and we're still on track with that, right?

Then that person is flooding the market with Leatherworker/Weaver items that only a level 50 Leatherworker/Weaver, like himself, could make. Or possibly could have made on his previous server, or simply bought there if the prices were low enough and he had the supernatural abilities of 8 newly made level 1 characters per day to search for a server that had higher prices for re-sale.

He is also posting items for gil seller-style prices, or maybe just to show off what he's got, or possibly just to see what he can get away with. Was he undercutting the market, over-charging, or just putting things at arbitrary prices near the same cost so that his stuff stands out from the rest of the field?

Now, this crafter had no materia socketed in his gear, and had no other crafting classes leveled, yet flooded the markets with these items (all with his signature). If you're going to stand by the idea that it was a quiet FC pooling their resources, how foolish would they have to be? Why not just sell the mats and make more gil? Why craft so many worthless NQ 2-star items? Why not have the crafting mule actually socket materia/level his other classes to 15? Why no logic in what they priced at?

Oh, so, all of this stuff has signature on it, indicating that he was indeed the one to make it. Possibly with items from his previous server. That he could have just stolen out of an FC bank or had an FC give to him because the market for the mats was low enough not to care on his previous server?

And you expect that, without materia or other classes at 15, he should not be able to make so many NQ items because it should be simple for anyone at that level without cross-class abilities or materia to be able to make HQ items reliably? I mean, any crafter that can craft should have all level 15 cross-class abilities and socketed materia before they even make an attempt, right? That's what I get from your comment there.

It just makes no sense. Of course, about 5 days later, all the items disappeared off the AH, never to be seen again. I'm left to assume that SE banned the account, but I guess we'll never know.

Banned because he was an item-duper, right? And not because he was a gil seller/buyer, right?

To respond to your edit, I don't understand how you think that people selling tome items for less than the cost to make consistently makes any sense. It's like me drilling for oil that I can sell for $20 a barrel but, instead, converting it to petrol and then selling it for $15 a barrel. When the price to sell raw materials is higher than the price of the finished products, why would you ever sell the finished product and not the raw materials?

You know, there's another thread out there in GD that points the finger at gil sellers pushing down the prices of common materials. Like they're trying to buy up a huge amount of cheap supply or something before jacking the prices through the roof and buying out anyone that dares sell cheaper (for the record, I have a friend who was doing this with Steel Ingots on his server as of a two weeks ago, don't know if he's still able to manage it or not).

If no one's making petrol, after all, the supply of cheap petrol will eventually run dry. Then once that supply of $15 a barrel petrol runs out, new barrels are going to go up for a premium on the price of the $20 barrels of oil.

So, is item-duping the only plausible explanation for what happened on your server? Not a chance. Sorry, it's not even close to the most likely explanations.

And then there's OptimalZedd's accusations. Based on "a rumor that some people are using item dupe script". With every example being that a person would have to buy the items off the market board, and could not possibly farm the items themselves or in a group to get free items to make other items that they can then sell for a profit while simultaneously undercutting and dropping the market out from under the people that do buy off the market board because that just wouldn't make any sense.

Well, get this. We do not play in a game of boring robo-people who do everything as expected. A person's reasons for undercutting, price-fixing, and attempting to earn arbitrary sums of money do not need to make sense to you or me. It doesn't even necessarily need to make sense to themselves.

Also, please understand that weird situations do not make a rumor true. They do not make your pre-conceived ideas of what is actually happening true. They do not give you a moral high ground to whine from.

All you can do in these cases is report to SE and move on. And, as SE's policy pop-up states when you submit these reports, they will not respond to you, no matter politely you ask, but they do receive the reports and investigate them.

they overflooding the market, and price of every potash/peacock ore/etc.. is droping like hell

Many people on my server are farming philo to make their liviing

People will say its the demand&supply rule, but clearly there is something strange going on

Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, I missed this part earlier. PEOPLE ON YOUR SERVER ARE FARMING PHILOSOPHY TOMES TO MAKE THEIR LIVING AND YOU THINK THERE'S AN ITEM-DUPING SCHEME GOING ON TO JUSTIFY WHY THE PRICES ARE DROPPING ON ITEMS THAT SUDDENLY NO ONE IS PAYING FULL PRICE FOR EXCEPT YOU!?!?!?

[Vaxx]

I like you! XD

[MentalPoison]

I seriously think you're missing the point.

Its pretty easy to miss when its drowning in unsupported tears.

This happened recently on Diabolos. A player transferred from Coeurl (could tell based on the names on his crafting gear)

Well the Hardy Boys crack the case and with enough evidence to put the criminal away forever!!! This has nothing to do with my 'not on my server', comment either!

with a 50 Weaver, 50 Leatherworker, 18 Glad, 23 Miner and not even a mount registered on his account. Suddenly, every 2-star weaver/leatherworker item had him posting 2 copies of NQ and HQ versions at seemingly arbitrary prices. HQ Vanya leggings for 444,444, NQ Vanya Leggings for 222,222. Gryphonskin ringsfor 555,555, with NQ ones for 333,333. This one a server where crafting mats were regularly selling for 35-40k on the AH

So officer, let me just get this straight. First your rookie hunch about the person being from Coeurl, is completely proven. Then you figured out his retainers only by gut instinct!

Congratulations you got the promotion Detective!

All jokes aside, ill just drop the bomb shell for yahs, Coeurl had a period of people selling tome mats for 100k per. You scream dupe, I realize that I just dropped 2 mil on this FC's crafter, so their plan to sell right before housing worked well!

Now, this crafter had no materia socketed in his gear, and had no other crafting classes leveled, yet flooded the markets with these items (all with his signature). If you're going to stand by the idea that it was a quiet FC pooling their resources, how foolish would they have to be? Why not just sell the mats and make more gil? Why craft so many worthless NQ 2-star items? Why not have the crafting mule actually socket materia/level his other classes to 15? Why no logic in what they priced at?

Gumshoe! No I mean you stepped in some gum my man. Now what were we talking about? Oh how this person couldnt possibly have done this.. Yet, you explain in painful detail, exactly how they did.

To address each question,
1) Objection your honor, leading the witness. Sustained.
2) How is selling the mats making more money? Regardless of how he got them, my FC theory, or buying them for cheap.. You're saying why didnt he break down the items into the appropriate materials and simply sell those on the market? I could only answer this with a question, im truly sorry.
3) NQ happens to poorly experienced crafters, it goes somewhere, in many FCs that place is the clan bank. Would you vendor a 2star for 428 gil?
4) This reminds me of a popular line of memes. 'Im not saying aliens, but the answer is simply aliens.'. Who knows why this person didnt add materia or if "Snuggles Unicorn" is telling the whole truth and isnt at all trollish in nature. Aliens?
5) I take offense to this question, as someone who was infamous for 333k, 555k, and weird denominations. The logic was quite simple and your friend Optimal doesnt get it either: Beat your price!

It just makes no sense. Of course, about 5 days later, all the items disappeared off the AH, never to be seen again. I'm left to assume that SE banned the account, but I guess we'll never know.

Makes a lot of sense and for the very reasons you listed. If I botched tons of crafts, maybe failed my FC and/or ditched them.. I would try to liquidate everything, as quickly as I could and leave crafting to the professional artists like you and 600 trillion billion gil Optimal. Disappeared, bought more then likely. Got a good offer, mentioned other auctions, wham bam thank you maam. Guess what.. You will seefff those items again and a still cheaper then your price!

To respond to your edit, I don't understand how you think that people selling tome items for less than the cost

Whoops, gotta stop yah there, this is where me and OptimalProfit started to lose eye contact. Cost. Lets say you sell Cornmeal for 100 per. I spent 65 gillion gil though for my mats. Damn you are such a duper, you've beaten my 'cost' without even that crazy "I get them myself, so there is no cost" gimmick! Well played, foiled again, dratttttssss.

to make consistently makes any sense. It's like me drilling for oil that I can sell for $20 a barrel but, instead, converting it to petrol and then selling it for $15 a barrel. When the price to sell raw materials is higher than the price of the finished products, why would you ever sell the finished product and not the raw materials?

Right! Its like said petrol coming here to America and me selling it for a penny less then the guy across the street. The more of us on the street.. The more the pennies add up.

As someone who has used and abused this game's market and can honestly tell you its not a magic trick or a dupe. Its just simple common sense. If the materials sell more rarely then the finished product at a very enticing price, I can make much more in a shorter span of time then I can by shelling out my "Super costly free mats", to someone else to make a quick buck off of.

You cannot wrap your head around this because the market board confuses you. When you go and see the history of Potash at 42k, then potash is only forever worth 42k. While for me, i take a step back and dont see a 378k cost, but a 333k profit. Good luck seeing it, its like the sailboat in the picture of dots.

[Astarica]

The 2 star crafting stuff simply doesn't move in volumes. It doesn't do any good if you see potash sells for 50K if only 3 of them has been sold in the last week. Even if someone just handed you 100 potash free of charge, you do NOT have 5 million gil worth of materials on you. If you tried to sell that you'll likely just sell 3 more of them for the next week if history is of any indication. Therefore, it makes more sense to take your 9 potash and turn it into a finished product and sell for 250K, if you're reasonably sure someone will buy it at that price. The 9 potash isn't worth 450K because you can't actually sell it at that price (not enough buyers). Note that the reverse can also be true. There are finished product that simply do not sell well and you'd be better off just selling the raw materials instead.