Just a couple of problems with the Market Boards.

[bwalker36]

Edit: Did Xi show a bid history along with sale history or just Sale history. If it showed Bid history its not completely blind just extremely delayed and still terrible but better than I thought lol.

Thanks for that, I didn't remember that in XI, however It doesn't give the entire supply picture. It still withholds vital info though and that being the current price. Why shouldno one know the actual offer price of a good? Why should prices be artificially held higher? Without knowing supply and supply price buyers are at still at a disadvantage.

All that system will do is artificially hold prices at a given point. And while prices may be more stable they may also be help stable at an incorrect price point. If there are 1k ore on the market and only 10 of them are at 1k and the rest are at 100; Now say that the last 100 purchases were between 500-1k that would lead me to think that is what I should be paying, however I should not be paying that at all. I want to pay the 100, the 100 that the sellers are offering at. Why should that be hidden from me, so that a seller can make more money then they want and the market is held up artificially until people slowly bring it lower through underbidding and winning.

It works the same way on the upside too, items will take longer to adjust upwards in price since, I'm not going to blindly bid higher, I'm most likely going to stay around the average and until some people decide they are willing to move up the price will stagnate and so will sales.

I just don't understand why anyone would want price withheld from a market. It slows price stabilization around supply/demand. You may make more money on certain items but you will be missing tons of money on all the items that adjust much slower.

Not directly at you Kaz but you I don't think you have addressed them either. What about exp on crafting, should that be free for the crafter, I don't think it should be and thus can bring down the costs of goods? I don't want to pay for the item plus your exp. And what is your counter to supply being the real problem here not undercutting? Undercutting in my opinion is a result of supply and useless items, not with being able to see current supply with price.

[Kazamoto]

In what world do people live where they can walk into a shop and NOT see prices listed?

Any time you buy: Cars, Furniture, houses, firearms, or other durable goods.

Sure, there is a listed price. But you would be a fool not to negotiate from that price.

Just because a car says $24,999 on the window doesn't mean they wouldn't take $24k, or even $22k.

By this I mean, the price listed, is not the price you may actually pay. This is the same for a blind auction with history. You can see what the price could be (MSRP ish) but your actual price may differ greatly.

Edit: Did Xi show a bid history along with sale history or just Sale history. If it showed Bid history its not completely blind just extremely delayed and still terrible but better than I thought lol.

Thanks for that, I didn't remember that in XI, however It doesn't give the entire supply picture. It still withholds vital info though and that being the current price. Why should no one know the actual offer price of a good? Why should prices be artificially held higher? Without knowing supply and supply price buyers are at still at a disadvantage.

XI did not show a bid history, but I wouldn't hate that as a feature.
How would items be held artificially higher? If supply has a truly hit a saturation level that warrants a downward trend in prices, sellers could list at that lower price. Buyers would be quick to notice, as buyers usually try for under cut items in their first few bids. And, even if they didn't catch on, the seller could buy his own wares, creating the a history for that price, and then just re-list the item. The slight cost paid in tax could be written off as an advertising expense.

The price it item is actually listed at could be thought of as the sellers 'reserve' price in any true auction.

In a real auction the item wont sell below reserve, but it could sell above.

It works the same way on the upside too, items will take longer to adjust upwards in price since, I'm not going to blindly bid higher, I'm most likely going to stay around the average and until some people decide they are willing to move up the price will stagnate and so will sales.

Earlier you argued that this would create artificially inflated prices, now its creating artificially deflated prices. And if stock is so low, that there aren't items sold at the average, then a higher price may be called for due to low supply.
While you may not feel like buying at a higher price, that just means demand hasn't risen yet to support a new price.

That means the price is at equilibrium. Supply and demand have met. If, as you suggest someone buys at the higher price, demand has risen to match the smaller supply, and that is the new price.

Not directly at you Kaz but you I don't think you have addressed them either. What about exp on crafting, should that be free for the crafter, I don't think it should be and thus can bring down the costs of goods? I don't want to pay for the item plus your exp. And what is your counter to supply being the real problem here not undercutting? Undercutting in my opinion is a result of supply and useless items, not with being able to see current supply with price.

Most of my arguments against undercutting are based on monster drops, gathering materials, dungeon materials, and crafted materials like ingots or leathers.
You are spot on with end user items like armor and weapons. Those things are a market I generally stay out of, because the margins and demand are too narrow.

As for the crafter's exp, what if the crafter is above the level of the item he is making? I am well above the exp cap of hard leather, but sometimes (rarely) it has a fair profit margin. So when i flood the market with them, i get no exp, but a good with an expected profit margin.

[ShinkuTachi]

XI did not show a bid history

Sorry I can't provide a screen. However, the AH did show the history of the last 10~20ish purchase prices.

[Kazamoto]

Sorry I can't provide a screen. However, the AH did show the history of the last 10~20ish bids.

Only the winning ones, bwalker36 was talking about bids that did not win.

[Kazamoto]

The main issue I have with undercutting, is that it is far too easy for a single seller to set off a chain reaction of undercuts that can damage an items value for weeks or even permanently.

Either a blind bid, or applying sale tax when the item is listed or price adjusted would slow the downward spiral a single undercutter can cause.

The only logic followed by most sellers now is:

Buyer wants to buy lowest price Item.
Lowest price item will sell first.
I must sell at lowest price.

There are times I've noticed one or two undercutters on an item I'm selling, so i buy them out before they can hurt prices, then relist the items at a slight profit, but if I'm in dungeons all day i cant be watching every market listing. It only takes one or two people to cause every other seller to just adjust their prices down rather than wait it out.

[bwalker36]

The main issue I have with undercutting, is that it is far too easy for a single seller to set off a chain reaction of undercuts that can damage an items value for weeks or even permanently.

Either a blind bid, or applying sale tax when the item is listed or price adjusted would slow the downward spiral a single undercutter can cause.

The only logic followed by most sellers now is:

Buyer wants to buy lowest price Item.
Lowest price item will sell first.
I must sell at lowest price.

There are times I've noticed one or two undercutters on an item I'm selling, so i buy them out before they can hurt prices, then relist the items at a slight profit, but if I'm in dungeons all day i cant be watching every market listing. It only takes one or two people to cause every other seller to just adjust their prices down rather than wait it out.

My solution and I think you might agree is to be forced to cancel the auction and then re list it. While doing this you must also pay fees when you list. I don't get not having to pay an upfront fee to list something that you get back if it sells and you don't if it doesn't. Stops two things the first being people listing things they should not be like allagan pieces lol and also stops people from adjusting their price every 30 seconds.

I will agree that the market reacts on supply side prices perhaps a bit too quickly because there is no penalty for improperly listing. If i had to pay 100 gil to list my stack of 99 I would be more inclined to keep it closer tot he average price, and I definitely am not going to re list to counter a 1g under cutter. I just have issues with withholding the supply price.

[ShinkuTachi]

Only the winning ones, bwalker36 was talking about bids that did not win.

I didn't notice that, my apologies.

Let me also throw out Kaz that I do a lot of crafting. Infact I do more crafting now than anything else lol so I don't just want cheaper goods that's not my play.

I know what you mean here, and a lot of time that's just the cost of doing business when people don't want to go farm. That's why gathering was the first thing I got on after getting a 50 battle class; so I can provide for my crafting classes myself. Otherwise, tons of money is sunk into crafting, and many times you end up at a loss or if you're lucky, a sliver profit margin of what you could potentially earn. Which is good in my opinion because it provides some reward for people who are willing to farm stuff.

In FFXI for example, farming crystals was a great way for new starting players to earn gil to get them going.

The main issue I have with undercutting, is that it is far too easy for a single seller to set off a chain reaction of undercuts that can damage an items value for weeks or even permanently.

Either a blind bid, or applying sale tax when the item is listed or price adjusted would slow the downward spiral a single undercutter can cause.

The only logic followed by most sellers now is:

Buyer wants to buy lowest price Item.
Lowest price item will sell first.
I must sell at lowest price.

There are times I've noticed one or two undercutters on an item I'm selling, so i buy them out before they can hurt prices, then relist the items at a slight profit, but if I'm in dungeons all day i cant be watching every market listing. It only takes one or two people to cause every other seller to just adjust their prices down rather than wait it out.

This is actually my only problem.
I only buy out massive undercutters though. Like if I see items going for about 50k-ish and someone undercuts to like 10k~20k, then I will buy it and resell it for like 48k or 49k. I also don't have a problem with undercutters only doing so by the handfuls of gil at a time.

However, watching something that's selling comfortably say 5k, get driven down to 100-200gil in a matter of hours is a bit saddening.

My solution and I think you might agree is to be forced to cancel the auction and then re list it. While doing this you must also pay fees when you list. I don't get not having to pay an upfront fee to list something that you get back if it sells and you don't if it doesn't. Stops two things the first being people listing things they should not be like allagan pieces lol and also stops people from adjusting their price every 30 seconds.

I will agree that the market reacts on supply side prices perhaps a bit too quickly because there is no penalty for improperly listing. If i had to pay 100 gil to list my stack of 99 I would be more inclined to keep it closer tot he average price, and I definitely am not going to re list to counter a 1g under cutter. I just have issues with withholding the supply price.

I also wouldn't be opposed to steeper taxation and an immediate listing charge to the seller; as well as, adding a charge to price adjustment. While it wouldn't cause a fullstop to undercutting, people would be a bit more careful in how they do things.