Just a couple of problems with the Market Boards.

[ShinkuTachi]

In game economy in a way still obeys real world economic rules...just that some people sees it, some don't, and some just choose to deny its existence. The differences are just the mechanics, constraint, complexity, and the size of the market.

When you are constantly selling something at 1000g, you will think that is the 'fair' price. But for me, I might be gathering/crafting these items myself, or that I think my time is worth less, so I price mine at 500 and make a smaller profit, but increases the number that I sell comparing to the price of 1000...I might even end up with a higher total profit though the margin is smaller. Still, there are also economic reasons to sell items at below the cost...I could had made a mistake and want to liquidate my holdings, or I could be crafting those to level up my crafter, in which case I'm willing to take those losses to gain crafting xp. Or,it could be part of my pricing strategy to corner a market and kick out competitors. I do not deny that there are undercutters who doesn't know what they are doing...and frankly, I don't care. People undercut for a lot of reasons. It is you who are not able to figure it out and use undercutting to your advantage. Heck, if I'm a buyer, I would love undercutters to make price affordable.

Hiding the current sell price just increases the cost of buying items (by soending more time) and decreases the liquidity of the market. How do you know you are not being undercut in that system? Just because you don't see or understand something doesn't means it's not real.

The market we have here is pretty much on par with ebay or amazon sellers.
Since were all gamers here, I will use a couple as an example.

Go to Ebay or Amazon, and look up Persona 4 Golden: Solid Gold *Only 10,000 of those were produced*
Then look up say, Madden NFL 12 *An annually produced series, which saturates the market*

That is basically our market. I don't lack the understanding of what FFXIVs market is right now. I understand it perfectly, and I've made a nice chunk of gil using it; sadly, it could be a larger chunk. So you don't need to tell me what I'm getting or not getting about the market unless your gil count is at 8 figures.

I was saying that 'real world' economics doesn't apply in the sense that, businesses aren't undercutting each other into oblivion to make a sale. Let's take a 20 oz Coca Cola for example. If I leave my house right now, and hit every competing convenience store and grocery store in town; I am not going to find that stores, in an effort to sell Coke, have undercut each other to the point that I can buy the stuff for 5 cents a bottle. Anywhere I go, I will pay around $1.59 ~ $1.79 a bottle.
Likewise, you are not going to find the ingredients for Coke and the materials used for bottling and labels are being undercut into the abyss.
Down the line, sellers have set a price and the buyers have agreed to that value.

So why is 'real world' economics being thrown at my suggestion; when this economy is not based 'real world' economics to begin with?
I mean, it is 'real world' in the sense of Ebay and Amazon sellers/buyers. However, it's not in the sense of legitimate businesses, such as a retail or department store. There is a difference. I'm sure we can all agree to that. The FFXIV market could never be the latter though; which is why I stated before that it is pointless to bring that type into comparison.

Look, I didn't realize you and so many others were content and happy with the economy as it is.

However, if you or anyone else not happy with the economy we have, then voice it; even if you don't agree with my suggestion. I'm not saying my suggestion is right way or the only way. I just have years of experience with blind auctions; and while it's not perfect, I haven't found it to have these issues on the same scale as our current system. That is why I suggested it.
Just telling me I am wrong and/or insulting me, without providing ideas we could get behind as a collective to improve things, is counter productive and it just sends the discussion in circles.

[bwalker36]

I understand and respect that some people like the blind system better. What I don't like is that people assume just because an item cost x to craft it should be worth x+Y on the market board. This is not true in any real way. Companies design products that never make it to production becuase the cost to make them is more or too close to where they can sell them at. It happens. The white items in this game are a lot of times pretty useless and also get replaced very quickly. Becuase of this their value is not in the materials but the EXP gained while crafting. So these items can and a lot of times should be sold below the cost to produce.

In addition there are like a billion ore in the market place and more supply gets added than demand takes away. That is the reason for the undercutting on items like that. On the less supplied white items if the price is above the vendor then the person either A) Made it for exp and is trying to recoup some cost realizing the item is not worth its materials (very true for a ton of items) or B) They made it by mistake and want a quick sale or they just want a quick sale at lower margin.

A lot of people don't get margins and complain about the guy selling at 50% but makes 200% more revenue since they sell twice as many. Not all of you for the blind system don't get it, I'm just pointing out that it is an issue with peoples understanding sometimes. In addition you all always say the undercutting is a Problem. I think the majority of undercutting comes from terrible market saturation and it will subside as less people are doing the same thing. Bomb ash for example is a mid tier crafting material and when I was leveling mining it was around 20-30 gil. Now it is up towards 60-80 because most of the population has moved passed it from a mining standpoint.

I will admit some people have no clue what they are doing and will just undercut for the sake of it without looking at any other info but that is going to happen regardless. I don't like blind auctions because they withhold vital information most notably the supply. If something is going for 10k that can be used once by everyone only and there are 50k of them on the ah but I don't see that so I think it has to be worth that since the history shows that much. However there are only 15k people on the server and even if we double that for alts there would still be 20k left over. That item is not worth nearly that much since a bunch of them would be unusable. Without both supply/demand shown and current prices the market is skewed towards the seller.

In a game where crafting is not difficult and mats are abundant there is not reason to cater towards the seller so much. The blind system will react slower to price changes, both increases and decreases. The current system allows almost real time price fluctuations which benefit both the buyers and sellers. Its supply that is killing markets right now in my opinion and nothing else.

The widely used items on my server at least seem to maintain a very stable price. Its the obscure items or crappy white items, that are either not really used or only really used to level crafting that fluctuate madly and that is becuase people never seem to take into account the value of the xp the crafter gets. When I craft a white item for EXP I would love the buyer to pay for all my mats while getting the exp but I cannot be mad when another crafter undercuts me by 30-50% I will just match and at that point I had to spend gil to earn exp. I'm okay with that. If the item actually has worth and the markets are just flooded with the item and the supply exceeds the demand sell the mats instead as they will be slower to react tot he decrease that is inevitable from the crafted item.

[Kazamoto]

I don't like blind auctions because they withhold vital information most notably the supply.

You have said this, many times, and it still isn't true.

Took me a while to find this, and as it shows, before we could only sell single items, or full stacks (12 or 99) and I am not suggesting we go back to that, but in this particular image:

It shows there are no individual fire crystals, a single stack of fire crystals and no individual ice crystals.

This shows, quite clearly the SUPPLY of the good on the market, then if that item is selected, there is an option list including bid, and price history.

On a proper busy server items like ores would and could say [1000] next to item stock.

[Korbei]

In what world do people live where they can walk into a shop and NOT see prices listed?

Do people shop at silent auctions?

[bwalker36]

Edit: Did Xi show a bid history along with sale history or just Sale history. If it showed Bid history its not completely blind just extremely delayed and still terrible but better than I thought lol.

Thanks for that, I didn't remember that in XI, however It doesn't give the entire supply picture. It still withholds vital info though and that being the current price. Why shouldno one know the actual offer price of a good? Why should prices be artificially held higher? Without knowing supply and supply price buyers are at still at a disadvantage.

All that system will do is artificially hold prices at a given point. And while prices may be more stable they may also be help stable at an incorrect price point. If there are 1k ore on the market and only 10 of them are at 1k and the rest are at 100; Now say that the last 100 purchases were between 500-1k that would lead me to think that is what I should be paying, however I should not be paying that at all. I want to pay the 100, the 100 that the sellers are offering at. Why should that be hidden from me, so that a seller can make more money then they want and the market is held up artificially until people slowly bring it lower through underbidding and winning.

It works the same way on the upside too, items will take longer to adjust upwards in price since, I'm not going to blindly bid higher, I'm most likely going to stay around the average and until some people decide they are willing to move up the price will stagnate and so will sales.

I just don't understand why anyone would want price withheld from a market. It slows price stabilization around supply/demand. You may make more money on certain items but you will be missing tons of money on all the items that adjust much slower.

Not directly at you Kaz but you I don't think you have addressed them either. What about exp on crafting, should that be free for the crafter, I don't think it should be and thus can bring down the costs of goods? I don't want to pay for the item plus your exp. And what is your counter to supply being the real problem here not undercutting? Undercutting in my opinion is a result of supply and useless items, not with being able to see current supply with price.

[Kazamoto]

In what world do people live where they can walk into a shop and NOT see prices listed?

Any time you buy: Cars, Furniture, houses, firearms, or other durable goods.

Sure, there is a listed price. But you would be a fool not to negotiate from that price.

Just because a car says $24,999 on the window doesn't mean they wouldn't take $24k, or even $22k.

By this I mean, the price listed, is not the price you may actually pay. This is the same for a blind auction with history. You can see what the price could be (MSRP ish) but your actual price may differ greatly.

Edit: Did Xi show a bid history along with sale history or just Sale history. If it showed Bid history its not completely blind just extremely delayed and still terrible but better than I thought lol.

Thanks for that, I didn't remember that in XI, however It doesn't give the entire supply picture. It still withholds vital info though and that being the current price. Why should no one know the actual offer price of a good? Why should prices be artificially held higher? Without knowing supply and supply price buyers are at still at a disadvantage.

XI did not show a bid history, but I wouldn't hate that as a feature.
How would items be held artificially higher? If supply has a truly hit a saturation level that warrants a downward trend in prices, sellers could list at that lower price. Buyers would be quick to notice, as buyers usually try for under cut items in their first few bids. And, even if they didn't catch on, the seller could buy his own wares, creating the a history for that price, and then just re-list the item. The slight cost paid in tax could be written off as an advertising expense.

The price it item is actually listed at could be thought of as the sellers 'reserve' price in any true auction.

In a real auction the item wont sell below reserve, but it could sell above.

It works the same way on the upside too, items will take longer to adjust upwards in price since, I'm not going to blindly bid higher, I'm most likely going to stay around the average and until some people decide they are willing to move up the price will stagnate and so will sales.

Earlier you argued that this would create artificially inflated prices, now its creating artificially deflated prices. And if stock is so low, that there aren't items sold at the average, then a higher price may be called for due to low supply.
While you may not feel like buying at a higher price, that just means demand hasn't risen yet to support a new price.

That means the price is at equilibrium. Supply and demand have met. If, as you suggest someone buys at the higher price, demand has risen to match the smaller supply, and that is the new price.

Not directly at you Kaz but you I don't think you have addressed them either. What about exp on crafting, should that be free for the crafter, I don't think it should be and thus can bring down the costs of goods? I don't want to pay for the item plus your exp. And what is your counter to supply being the real problem here not undercutting? Undercutting in my opinion is a result of supply and useless items, not with being able to see current supply with price.

Most of my arguments against undercutting are based on monster drops, gathering materials, dungeon materials, and crafted materials like ingots or leathers.
You are spot on with end user items like armor and weapons. Those things are a market I generally stay out of, because the margins and demand are too narrow.

As for the crafter's exp, what if the crafter is above the level of the item he is making? I am well above the exp cap of hard leather, but sometimes (rarely) it has a fair profit margin. So when i flood the market with them, i get no exp, but a good with an expected profit margin.

[bwalker36]

My point about Items being help artificially is that they react slower. I poorly structured my response, both the upside and the downside should have been in the same spot and I never really pointed out the upside because I think the downside is where the bigger problem lies.

If supply outpaces demand it takes longer in the blind system to react because we as the buyer only see sale history. So if 10 people all start listing on a downward trend I don't know their bottom. We don't know the lowest supply price. When there is one guy at 25 and fifty at 75 and finally 5 at 125 the more realistic price would be 75. Now if the last 100 sales were at 125 it would make me think that is the stabilized price, but in fact the market has shifted to 75 on the supply side. Sure I will probably start bids in the 115 range maybe I'll go 90 and get lucky but I don't know there is a lot of supply there. The sale history will slowly migrate towards that 75 but probably wont reach it until supply shifts again. You would lag behind the supply price by quite a bit in either direction.

On a second note you mentioned on my example of lagging upwards that it means it hit equilibrium. Not necessarily. Say there is demand for 10 items. Sellers are listing them now for 100, but he history shows between 75-85. Perhaps 8 of us refuse to pay more, our demand is not there at that supply price. But since two of them are the history now shows higher prices but only two. A few more of the items are added to the market at the 100 price and a few more buyers some will pay some wont. Now me as one of the original buyers looks a the history the next day and while its not selling like hot cakes notice its actually selling higher and that its more than just someone pricing a few too high and some of the others react on this news before it goes any higher. Now the movement gets momentum and until we see 100's of items instead of 10 then buyers will continue to follow the price up.

I know its not the best example as none of this is simple but just because prices stagnate or react extremely slow does not mean they are near or at equilibrium prices. I prefer markets that react quickly to prices changes. With the current market I would go on the board and see 50 or between 5-15 and 250 ore between 25-30 and finally 35 at 35-40. Now if I want high turnover, lower margin I'll match or slightly under offer the 50, but If I'm looking to price at the market i should be slightly under the 250 sellers to get a sale with a good margin. I know you understand those concepts and I feel it allows prices to react faster. When there is not 150 listings of Iron Ore, most of which are 99 stacks, you will see much less undercutting. Same with monster drops, however I find most of the monster drops I deal with to stay relatively stable. Fleece and Direwebs are the notable ones. They don't fluctuate too much unless someone decides to unload but that is natural and may take the market a couple hours or a day to rebound.

Finally as you mentioned you might be 50 and not get the exp yes, but you are competing with people who are getting exp, so its a give or take. I also think it goes on to how many people are doing it. I have noticed lower level crafting stuff has started to creep up and stay more stable with less undercutters since people have moved past it for the most part. If you are making a leather at 50 you deserve to make your cost in materials back, but since you are in a market with people that may be making tons for xp and just dumping you may not or at least not make as much of a margin as you want. Thats where the decision to leave that market comes into play if your not happy with the margins.

Anyways I appreciate you not being a you know what as you have well thought out arguments and they make sense even though I don't agree I can see your side.

[ShinkuTachi]

XI did not show a bid history

Sorry I can't provide a screen. However, the AH did show the history of the last 10~20ish purchase prices.

[Kazamoto]

Sorry I can't provide a screen. However, the AH did show the history of the last 10~20ish bids.

Only the winning ones, bwalker36 was talking about bids that did not win.

[bwalker36]

Let me also throw out Kaz that I do a lot of crafting. Infact I do more crafting now than anything else lol so I don't just want cheaper goods that's not my play.