PLD is a waste on anything other than Titan and Coil.

[Abbycat]

stuff about dps.

There is no place where a paladins super defences is not needed. That is your flaw.
Simply because there is always more stuff to pull. More stuff -> more effective aoe spamming.

And the argument earlier about healer overhealing because the lower hp pool from a paladin. I dont get it. My paladin has 6.1k hp buffed. My warrior over 7.2k since she hasnt got the relic yet and rocks ifrit weapon.
You can easily let me drop to 30-40% without panicking. How can a healer waste a heal to overheal when he has to top 4k hp? I have yet to see a 5k heal so the healer can say "See if you were a warrior that 1k wouldnt have gone to waste".

I dont even know why this threat is so long. Stop saying Warriors are fine. They are not. They have some serious construction issues. With this thread you basically only hurt your own class.

[oceanlord]

new record 9 minute WP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

show me a warrior who can do that
how can a high defense a waste in 4 man content? LOL

[Jonjey]

new record 9 minute WP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8wwzsPcNB4

show me a warrior who can do that
how can a high defense a waste in 4 man content? LOL

So you took a video of 4 extremely over geared players using a very specific strategy with a very specific party formation, with little room for error, in an environment that the average player could not keep up, as a way to say that PLD is better than WAR?
The whole thread I've been talking about Duty Finder and random shout parties, not 4 Relic+1 players with full dl/af2/coil gear doing something that the average player could never do, whether they were on pld or war.
I think that's an awesome video, and I'll probably try doing something like that with my FC using my +1 relic/full dl blm. In a normal run, warrior would be better, but with that one specific, gear and skill intensive routine, a specific routine in which you couldn't use warrior either way as it is a different kind of tank, pld is obviously the only thing you could use.I will mention that I was tanking AK in DF earlier, both DPS were new but the healer we ended up with was very skilled, and on my war in full str tanking everything, he was able to just put regen on me and pop cleric stance to help carry our new dps players. With my self heals and his regen I very rarely needed any heals from him. Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

[Remn]

I saw WAR tanking Garuda all the time. the differnt between good WAR and Bad WAR is that good one know how to dodge slipstream, bad 1 just stand there and take the hit. (well it apply to PLD too, but PLD can afford to get hit just have to sue DEF CD

[Thyrllan]

People are so close minded it's absurd.

Your basis of PLD being wasted in 90% of the content boils down to 100% pug groups that aren't overgeared, in any way, that also refuse to use a paladin's strengths.

Yeah.

[oceanlord]

blahblahblah
I will mention that I was tanking AK in DF earlier, both DPS were new but the healer we ended up with was very skilled, and on my war in full str tanking everything, he was able to just put regen on me and pop cleric stance to help carry our new dps players. With my self heals and his regen I very rarely needed any heals from him. Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

cool story bro, brag all you want without video and expect us to trust you

tl:dr paladin is still better even on 4 man content
btw, can you show me a video of an overgeared warrior running WP?

[Vmage]

Which is something that every pld in this thread has adamantly stated would be impossible with a WAR tank. People are so close minded it's absurd.

first, every player not every paladin - my warrior was 50 over a year ago, my pld was leveled to 50 within the last month

and as far as i can see (admittedly i've skimmed a lot of the trash in this thread) people are refuting PLD is a waste in anything other than Titan and Coil.

mostly because it's an absolutely close minded viewpoint.

noone is going to argue that warriors can't complete content prior to titan, honestly noone should be arguing that warriors can't complete titan and coil either

the point everyone is trying to get through to you is that paladins clear content easier and quicker, whether it's low-end DF stuff, speed ran DF stuff, or endgame raids

I have no doubt that your warrior can perform well in a DF party, but it's kindof silly to think that you clear anything faster than if you had queue'd up as a paladin

aoe scales multiplicatively, if your warrior can handle 1-2 packs with minimal healing, your 2 dps and healer are hitting 3-6 mobs at once - whereas a paladin is doing 3-4 packs, and your 2 dps and healer are hitting 9-12 mobs at once

it's pretty basic, but to spell it out for you: overpower does not do more dps than 3 * (any 3 of: bane'd bio+bio2+miasma/fire2/holy/wide volley/doomspike)

I will concede that if you have DF'd two monks and a healer that refuses to cast anything but heals, you *might* get through faster with a warrior, as monk AoE is pretty horrendous

I'm not really sure that this one very specific scenario makes paladins a "waste" though, if anything that should illustrate how important it is for healers to dps - which they will always do more of with a paladin tank than a warrior.

tldr - noone is trying to claim warriors can't clear stuff, they're just trying to impress upon you that since paladins have this "super defense" as you put it, they can pull more mobs, so your dd's/healer will end up doing more dps regardless of their gear level - and clearing easier (on the healers) and faster to me does not sound like a waste, it's one of the reasons i use my paladin for cm/prae/wp/ak instead of my warrior, they're just better at every aspect of the role than warriors are.

i absolutely look forward to some class balance in future patches though, i'd prefer to play a warrior.. i enjoy the class more, it's just inferior in every way :\

[Umero]

please give Warrior Utsusemi

[Stryker]

I saw WAR tanking Garuda all the time. the differnt between good WAR and Bad WAR is that good one know how to dodge slipstream, bad 1 just stand there and take the hit. (well it apply to PLD too, but PLD can afford to get hit just have to sue DEF CD

I've seen wars tank garuda too. If any tank isn't dodging slipstream they're bad. Regardless of class.

[Jonjey]

i absolutely look forward to some class balance in future patches though, i'd prefer to play a warrior.. i enjoy the class more, it's just inferior in every way :\

I appreciate your openminded-ness.
I admit my initial wording was wrong, pld isn't a "waste" on anything. My overall point is that in your typical DF or Shout party for AK, Prae, CM, or TWP, having a warrior tank will make things go a little faster than having a pld tank. People are making excuses and bringing up absurd scenarios trying to slip through my logic in some way but I really don't see it. Saying a WHM dps is better than having a full time WAR tank in these situations is silly, as a WHM can never -always- dps, but a warrior will -always- be doing damage. People can crunch all the numbers that they want to, and as I've said, pld is obviously and very clearly the better -tank-, it's just my opinion in running things for weeks with pld tanks then leveling my war and seeing the difference first hand that having a warrior tank speeds up the typical, run of the mill party on any of that content. I obviously still think WAR needs a buff in a big way, as it's clearly not cut out to tank the things that -truly- matter, but I simply made this thread to share that from my personal experiences, being on my war I make things go a hell of a lot faster than when I'm on my relic mnk or relic+1 blm with a pld tank. I've personally never seen a pld in DF or shout groups run through and grab multiple packs of enemies at a time, so I don't really think that point of pld being able to tank more packs is all that viable as it rarely happens.