SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Borfin]

What precedent?

Because, you know, they haven't.

I mean, the original summoner(Rydia) learned Black Magic, Poison, Bio, Drain, Osomose, etc.

Garnet/Eiko weren't thematically based around their summons.

Yuna was, thematically, based around her summons -- But they were useless besides meat shields to soak up a hit every now and then. That isn't really displaying a "summons" or "summoners" power.

So, again, how is there a precedent?

In every iteration where Summoners were an identifiable job they had one class command - Summon - and with the exception of perhaps one summon in their entire arsenal they were largely elemental and not death, decay nor disease-based.

(continued)

[Borfin]

In FF3, Evokers had White/High Summons and Summoners had... just Summons.
In FF5, Summoners - you guessed it - primarily Summoned high-damage AoE attacks. Sure you could give them Black Magic, but that was true of any job. FF6-8 didn't have a specified Job, but I can't think of any Summons that inflicted Poison or Sap or whatever depending on the installment. Even if they did, they were rare.
Tactics? Offensive element-based summons with a focus on burst.

XII shifted eidolons from silent protectors to fallen angels hellbent on destruction, so that's a point for the other team, and I can't comment on X-III as I haven't completed it entirely.

Eiko and Garnet both primarily used Summons offensively (Eiko got Holy but that wasn't until the end of the game), Yuna's Sphere Grid is entirely white magic until she cheats and borrows from someone else's. I must have played differently than you, because I recall using aeons on nearly every boss fight both offensively (Grand Summon, etc) and defensively.

Nowhere is death and decay the theme. In fact, I would argue the opposite - Rydia, Eiko, Garnet all are capable of white magic at some point in their games, whereas only Rydia is capable of casting decay-themed spells.

I'm also kind of sad I won't get to cast Hellfire, Judgement Bolt, or Diamond Dust. :P

There is a recurring theme that Summoners depend on their summons for their damage output.

That is no longer the case.

Now it is based on magic the summoner wields (which is different from abilities the summoner uses, note the distinction) and NOT the power of the summon he controls, particularly with a focus on decay and disease.

This irks me.

Again, I love the job - but the sudden shift in thematic design is very jarring. It makes sense for an Arcanist I suppose, but I disagree with it matching the theme of the Summoner.

[crisvok]

actually ifrit has way way more dmg than garuda when it comes to auto attack and killing trash. you are suppose to use ifrit for trash and garuda for bosses bc 15+ from contagion is useless on a AK speed run. Ifrits' abilities excel on killing multiple adds quickly one after the other now when the boss contagion and garuda are way better than ifrit bc the dots and survivability come into play. As a smn you should be using ifrit and garuda interchangeably.

if any1 think im making those numbers up do a little research ifrit is actually very good just have to know when to use it obviously dont use it versus titan HM or something but for ak speed runs and CM and pre boss in coil its very useful

[Kevee]

In every iteration where Summoners were an identifiable job they had one class command - Summon...

Not really.

There is a recurring theme that Summoners depend on their summons for their damage output.

Uh, No. Again, Rydia, Eiko/Garnet, Yuna, etc. In tactics it was ultimately better to dual-wield whack things. If you needed to AoE, you used a Calculator.

I must have played differently than you

Yeah, you played sub-optimally. Summoning has never been that strong. You always had better options. They feel powerful, yeah.

[Kevee]

actually ifrit has way way more dmg than garuda when it comes to auto attack and killing trash. you are suppose to use ifrit for trash and garuda for bosses bc 15+ from contagion is useless on a AK speed run. Ifrits' abilities excel on killing multiple adds quickly one after the other now when the boss contagion and garuda are way better than ifrit bc the dots and survivability come into play. As a smn you should be using ifrit and garuda interchangeably.

if any1 think im making those numbers up do a little research ifrit is actually very good just have to know when to use it obviously dont use it versus titan HM or something but for ak speed runs and CM and pre boss in coil its very useful

No.

You are wrong.

Read the thread(s) before posting this.

Garuda, currently, does more DPS than Ifrit on Obey. On Sic, Ifrit does more DPS(3), which is not enough to off-set being melee and not having contagion.

[Borfin]

Not really.

Care to point me to a Summoner/Caller that didn't have Summon/Call?

6-8 didn't have Summoners or Callers, neither did 12. Besides that, Esper command was a Summon command, as was GF.

Uh, No. Again, Rydia, Eiko/Garnet, Yuna, etc. In tactics it was ultimately better to dual-wield whack things. If you needed to AoE, you used a Calculator.

I liked the part where you ignored my evidence to the contrary on Eiko and Garnet. Besides that, whether a strategy was ultimately better to dual class with or yoink abilities from is irrelevant to the theme of the Summoner job.

Yeah, you played sub-optimally. Summoning has never been that strong. You always had better options. They feel powerful, yeah.

I never said it was and I'm not sure why you're trying to claim that I did. I said "the summoner's main source of damage output was his or her summon". With the exception of perhaps Rydia (which is debatable depending on the level you got into Bahamut's cave at - and even then, throughout the vast majority of the game her Calls outclassed her black magic by a very large margin until she gets the -3 spells and were competitive even then) and borrowing abilities from other Jobs this has always been the case.

None of that has anything to do with the core issue I have with the thematic change which is, again, a switch from elemental and burst to death, decay and disease.

Are you sure you're arguing with the right person? You seem to be taking issue with lots of things I never said.

[Kevee]

Care to point me to a Summoner/Caller that didn't have Summon/Call?

You didn't say that. You said that "Summon" was their only command.

I liked the part where you ignored my evidence to the contrary on Eiko and Garnet. Besides that, whether a strategy was ultimately better to dual class with is irrelevant to the theme of the Summoner job.

Eiko/Garnet are evidence towards my point. They weren't better off summoning, and in fact it was a detriment to the whole party because of the way buff mechanics worked in 9.

It's not, if you think part of the theme of Summoner is to be "powerful."

I never said it was and I'm not sure why you're trying to claim that I did. I said "the summoner's main source of damage output was his or her summon". With the exception of perhaps Rydia (which is debatable depending on the level you got into Bahamut's cave at - and even then, throughout the vast majority of the game her Calls outclassed her black magic by a very large margin until she gets the -3 spells) and borrowing abilities from other Jobs this has always been the case.

That's my point. A summoner's main source of damage is, more often, not summons. Not for Rydia, not for Yuna, not for Eiko/Garnet, and not for Tactics summoners. 3 is unique in that it was their only command, iirc, and I never played 5 or 6.

None of that has anything to do with the core issue I have with the thematic change which is, again, a switch from elemental and burst to death, decay and disease.

Death, decay, and disease has off-and-on been a part of the theme. RE: Rydia, off-classing, Lich/Doomtrain/Hades/Etc summons, and biggest of all, FFXIV. Which, you know, is itself a FF game and makes an example towards that type of Summoner.

[Borfin]

You didn't say that. You said that "Summon" was their only command.

Oh, you're one of those. They had a dedicated command that existed solely for the purpose of summoning. Happy now?

Eiko/Garnet are evidence towards my point. They weren't better off summoning, and in fact it was a detriment to the whole party because of the way buff mechanics worked in 9.

It's not, if you think part of the theme of Summoner is to be "powerful."

Read my lips: Offensive capabilities centered around the summon. How strong they were is irrelevant. Besides that, white magic is hardly death and decay now is it?

That's my point. A summoner's main source of damage is, more often, not summons. Not for Rydia, not for Yuna, not for Eiko/Garnet, and not for Tactics summoners. 3 is unique in that it was their only command, iirc, and I never played 5 or 6.

Except that Rydia's calls outdamage her spells while she's a child, her tier 2 summons outdamage her tier 2 magic and her tier 3 magic is quickly rendered obsolete by Leviathan and Bahamut. Oh you still use tier 3 spells - when the enemy is weak against them.

Flare and Meteor are so far into the game they're not worth mentioning.

Besides that, in order for Yuna to be offensive she needs to borrow from someone else's grid. Garnet receives nothing offensively, Eiko receives Holy at the end of the game. All three of them if they choose to be offensive will utilize... dun dun dun... their summons.

Again, the fact that they use white magic supports my argument AGAINST the decay theme.

(continued)

[Borfin]

Death, decay, and disease has off-and-on been a part of the theme. RE: Rydia, off-classing, Lich/Doomtrain/Hades/Etc summons, and biggest of all, FFXIV. Which, you know, is itself a FF game and makes an example towards that type of Summoner.

Part of the -game- yes. But it was never a core summoner theme. Lich, Hades and Doomtrain were all the single solitary examples of decay-themed summons in their games among 14-20 other summons that were not. Everywhere else it required offclassing.

How are you claiming it's part of the theme of the job if it's not part of the job to begin with?

Are you even reading?

[Kevee]

Lore-wise, yeah. Their offense was centered around the summon. Practically, or mechanically? No.

All three of them if they choose to be offensive will utilize... dun dun dun... their summons.

Again, the fact that they use white magic supports my argument AGAINST the decay theme.

No, they won't.


Physick. Resurrection. Eye for an Eye. Rydia. Summons not being the main focus of supposed Summoners. They don't have to match the "decay" theme.

Flare and Meteor are so far into the game they're not worth mentioning.

Lol?