SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[shinros]

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

Actually? I would like that, this way they may have been bigger or had better visuals(IMO) and most likely ifrit would not be trash since he would not scale off physical damage. In my opinion scholar feels more like a summoner after playing it.

And then enkindle will keep the out for period of time and the ending it with the signature move.

[Hawklaser]

Last I heard, FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game and can develop it's own archetype.

If you don't think so, what is the Summoner archetype?

Also, there is no over-arching theme(Besides creature that is "summoned" does things). Just some people say there is, when really they just have a bias towards certain Final Fantasies.

The over-arching theme for a Final Fantasy Summoner has every thing to do with those Summons and how they feel. If that feel is not there, the job is not really matching the expectations people have for Summoner, hence why there is this thread.

It's not a thematic problem. They are introduced in the lore as such. It wasn't a thematic problem in X, from the shift of EVERYTHING prior. Both from altering your party, to directly commanding them, to them ultimately being useless. The overall theme changed with X.

There are no issues with the lore they used for XIV's summoner, as it pretty much follows the FF Summoner Archtype for lore. Which is tied to having to subdue or display your power to the entity you want to summon, and only ones I can think off-hand that did not have this happen for stronger summons is FF7 and FF9, but that did not affect their over all thematic feel. The issue has to do entirely with the power balance between the Egi and the Summoner being out of whack for a FF Summoner. I fully understand why they went the route they did with it, but they should not have called it Summoner. For example, if they had called it Evoker, which is a name they have used before for weaker Summoners in a game with full Summoners, no problem would exist.

-Pet isn't insignificant feeling. Simply because people don't look at the numbers, that doesn't mean they are insignificant.
-Totally forgettable? For the lore that is established in XIV, and the fact we don't summon the actual primals, I like the designs. They are sleek, and pretty cool looking. People are saying, "Man, why can't we summon something like Garuda?" -- Well, it wouldn't make sense to summon something that looks like it when we just use an essence of power. Image can reflect power. For summoning an essence, the Egi's do a great job of getting the theme of the primals.

I know the damage put out from them is not insignificant, they feel insignificant because all they feel like is a DoT with a HP bar as its limit instead of a duration. The forgettable part has nothing to do with their looks, but from how they play. In the long run, the Egi's are not really going to leave a lasting impression on people outside of them being walking DoTs.

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

Which is something that is expected of summons. Either a nice burst damage ability, or a strong utility effect. Also never said wanted it pet based, even XI's Summoner, which is the closest to a pet based Summoner, still fit the expectations of a Summoner. They were limited in duration outside of HP, the power balance between the Summoner and Summon was right, and their signature abilities fit the expected feel even if could only rarely use them. We don't want XI's Summoner because while it felt like a Summoner it was generally seen as useful by the general player base for its 2-hour ability only, or as a healer in a pinch. It was very rare for people to want a Summoner unless they felt they needed the incredible burst potential of the job. Or in the later years, for Perfect Defense.

[Kevee]

The over-arching theme for a Final Fantasy Summoner has every thing to do with those Summons and how they feel. If that feel is not there, the job is not really matching the expectations people have for Summoner, hence why there is this thread.

Okay, and how do summons feel?

There are no issues with the lore they used for XIV's summoner, as it pretty much follows the FF Summoner Archtype for lore. Which is tied to having to subdue or display your power to the entity you want to summon, and only ones I can think off-hand that did not have this happen for stronger summons is FF7 and FF9, but that did not affect their over all thematic feel. The issue has to do entirely with the power balance between the Egi and the Summoner being out of whack for a FF Summoner. I fully understand why they went the route they did with it, but they should not have called it Summoner. For example, if they had called it Evoker, which is a name they have used before for weaker Summoners in a game with full Summoners, no problem would exist.

No, there can't be this issue, because Summons have always been weak, or not the optimal thing, for the "Summoners" to do. FFXI is different, yeah. The pets did everything, literally. The summoner's didn't have another option, but they were weak in comparison to everyone else.

I know the damage put out from them is not insignificant, they feel insignificant because all they feel like is a DoT with a HP bar as its limit instead of a duration. The forgettable part has nothing to do with their looks, but from how they play. In the long run, the Egi's are not really going to leave a lasting impression on people outside of them being walking DoTs.

And why is that a problem? I mean, doing a significant portion of your damage, modifying/altering your rotation, and the necessity to micro-manage it in some fights..What else do you want? Not to mention micro-managing the AoE ability, too, because you should have your pet on Obey.

Which is something that is expected of summons. Either a nice burst damage ability, or a strong utility effect. Also never said wanted it pet based, even XI's Summoner, which is the closest to a pet based Summoner, still fit the expectations of a Summoner. They were limited in duration outside of HP, the power balance between the Summoner and Summon was right, and their signature abilities fit the expected feel even if could only rarely use them. We don't want XI's Summoner because while it felt like a Summoner it was generally seen as useful by the general player base for its 2-hour ability only, or as a healer in a pinch. It was very rare for people to want a Summoner unless they felt they needed the incredible burst potential of the job. Or in the later years, for Perfect Defense.

-Burst = Enkindle
-Utility = Contagion/Stun

They were also weak. I don't care if I "feel" like A summoner(even though I do in XIV), if I'm weak in comparison to everyone else. You keep talking about the "feel." What "feel?" Certainly that has changed from pre-X to post-X, right?

[Crevox]

-Burst = Enkindle

dat unreliable 5 minute cooldown

-Utility = Contagion/Stun

dat 2 second stun that can't be used on instant demand with a long cooldown
dat ability that isn't utility

[Kevee]

dat unreliable 5 minute cooldown



dat 2 second stun and ability that isn't utility

It's never been unreliable for me.

Want me to list the utility that the actual summoner brings, which is far greater than any other DPS class, except BRD? In some cases, even better than BRD.

[pandabearcat]

I've kinda gotten over the huge summons thing already.

DoTs, whatever, they're kinda neat once you get into the swing of things.

I wish my pet wasn't so stupid though. I'm running out of buttons to hotkey all the pet commands.

Also, I still don't like the way they look. I've decided the reason is that they don't really have defined features. If you stare at them, they are sorta amorphous with spikes (well titan is a golden popcorn). Maybe its a limitation of the client, but it would be nice if they had more defined physical features rather than just beings of energy.

[Hawklaser]

Okay, and how do summons feel?

Before I try and explain this, have to say this could be very difficult for you to understand because you seem to look at each action from a purely min/max perspective, that or you are just playing devil's advocate.


First lets go with a checklist the big things that summons over the years have had in common for the thematic side. Good appearances(animation/looks), strong iconic moves, the entity is as strong or stronger than the character, borrow their power for a limited time, and often times have to earn their use. (For those not familiar, appearances can be extremely subjective, though usually the FF summons are a step above most of the other spells/actions/monsters in the game.)

Now lets go down that list for XIV's Egi's. For appearances they do look rather well, however their animations for their attacks are not very awe inspiring, and that is likely due to keeping the game playable for people when large numbers of summoners are in the area. They really do not have the strong iconic moves(damage or utility) and having to stack multiple buffs to achieve a strong attack does not count, even more so when BLM's fire 3 which is gotten much earlier is spammable and is equal to or stronger than a non-buffed enkindle. For the power balance, the controlled Egi's I am pretty sure are no where close to half as strong as the player as I can pull hate off of all but my Topaz Carby/Titan without really trying. The Egi's are not really temporary at all, disposable, but not temporary. We already went of the earning their use earlier so not going over that again. So for me that is only 1.5 out of the 5 big things I expect in a Final Fantasy Summon, and for them to feel right it usually takes 3.5+ of those for me.

No, there can't be this issue, because Summons have always been weak, or not the optimal thing, for the "Summoners" to do. FFXI is different, yeah. The pets did everything, literally. The summoner's didn't have another option, but they were weak in comparison to everyone else.

There can be this issue of them being thematically wrong, and for those that only look at thing from a min/max perspective, as you seem to do, they very rarely see the thematic side of things. Which is the entire issue with XIV's Summoner, it does not fit the Final Fantasy Summoner theme.

And why is that a problem? I mean, doing a significant portion of your damage, modifying/altering your rotation, and the necessity to micro-manage it in some fights..What else do you want? Not to mention micro-managing the AoE ability, too, because you should have your pet on Obey.

The best way I can explain this one to you, involves visible and invisible power. To best explain this, I am going to use Cure and Regen to illustrate. Cure is a good example of a visible heal, as a player you very clearly know how much of an effect a single cure has. Regen is a good example of an invisible heal, while strong, lots of people over look it because they have no reliable way to quantify how effective it is on the fly, either need a parser of some sort or have to math it out. And on the damage side, DoTs are mostly invisible power. And on the whole always needing to have pet on obey, that is pretty much only because of a need to control one ability on the pet, outside of CC situations.

-Burst = Enkindle
-Utility = Contagion/Stun

They were also weak. I don't care if I "feel" like A summoner(even though I do in XIV), if I'm weak in comparison to everyone else. You keep talking about the "feel." What "feel?" Certainly that has changed from pre-X to post-X, right?

On Enkindle being a burst ability, that does not really fly if always have to stack buffs just for it to be worth using due to its long cooldown. Also if you want your burst on Summoner, Fester is going to be your go to burst.

Contagion is not really a utility spell, its another of those invisible power nukes. The stuns are very marginal utility, as most times when would use it there are better stuns available in a group, not to mention invoking diminishing returns on said better stuns. Which makes the stun mostly a solo use skill, and even then it is not needed.

The whole not caring if you feel like a summoner or not if its weaker than everything else is part of why you are not getting this. If you only consider the thematic of something when it is not weaker than everything else, means it is something that is only an after thought.

Also the feel of a Summoner has not changed at all pre-X and post-X. The only place where it has been noticeably different to me, is XIV.

[Kevee]

I read your whole post, and I won't comment on the rest of it because this is where we disagree and we can't get past that:

First lets go with a checklist the big things that summons over the years have had in common for the thematic side. Good appearances(animation/looks), strong iconic moves, the entity is as strong or stronger than the character, borrow their power for a limited time, and often times have to earn their use. (For those not familiar, appearances can be extremely subjective, though usually the FF summons are a step above most of the other spells/actions/monsters in the game.)

"Strong" iconic moves. I hope you mean "strong" in the visual sense.
They have never really been stronger than the character, barring XI. They're either an MP sponge(sustainability problem) or there's just better options.
Limited time really has nothing to do with the theme, and X didn't have a timer. XI didn't really have a timer at endgame, and Carbuncle especially didn't.
Earning use? Yeah.

XIV hits all those notes for me, though.
"Strong" iconic move -> Enkindle
Not insignificant, damage wise, compared to other Final Fantasies. This is due to them being permanent and aiding our character. No single hit is that high, barring Enkindle, but all the smaller numbers add up.
You earn the use of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan.

[Miiu]

Coming from playing Summoner extensively in FFXI (quitted before they raised the cap above 75) so I was still leveling SMN as a gimped WHM in almost every party but tbh I didn't mind that so much. I can enjoy being the healer. So like others when I heard Summoners will be playable in FFXIV I was happy as I can be.
What I could have done was actually read more about this "Summoner" version but nope I decided to go in blindly and discover the class for myself. So 50 levels later I still try to figure out when I actually can start playing Summoner. I mean I had my astral rat as arcanist and it was fun. But I was probably still blinded by the sheer amount of happiness I had when discovering I could keep my pet out and not have to worry about being oom in 20 seconds. (I'm not going into -summoner mp cost equipment/elemental staves).
Now at max level I don't even have my carbi anymore (at least not on smn) but instead I have something that I can only consider a bad joke. The first summon(maybe even the most memorable) you got as a Summoner in FFXI is not even in your arsenal I mean wtf. Given the lore of FFXIV: ARR I can understand why they decided to not make your summons look like the actual primals but this is too much. Most of the minions you get for fun look more like their big brothers than what we got as supposedly the main appeal of the class.
But oh well here is still hoping that in the future SE will allow us to get summons that actually look like the real primals. And Art Assets can easier be changed than gameplay function. (Sure new animation and vfx take time but easier to work into existing gameplay)
Now besides the in my opinion broken aesthetics.
I can only agree to what the majority here is saying. We are playing a necromancer or warlock but not a summoner. I don't rely on my pets to be efficent its just there and does its thing. "But in FFXI you didn't rely on your pets either so why are you complaining now?" Because this was one of the most major complaints people had about the Summoner class in FFXI. Now SE had every chance to build a working pet class. I mean they had do start from scratch and still ignored what people wanted from the Summoner in FFXI. We have broken/awkward pet controls(toggle stances anyone?) plus pets that feel like a placeholder for something.
At least on the scholar while still clunky pet controls the pet actually is needed. At least from personal experience I felt myself rather lacking if my fairy wasn't around.(Dunno how this opinion will change the more I play).

All in all I'll keep playing because this isn't a bad game it's just utterly disappointing what they did with the summoner class and like already mentioned I really really hope that SE will add something worthwhile to the summoner class in the future. Or at least split the Summoner from the dot throwing warlock/necromancer it is right now. So the people who like the current playstyle are not being left out and can continue to enjoy it.

*edit* max 1000 chars per post are silly
*edit2* Thanks Hawklaser!

[Hawklaser]

*edit* max 1000 chars per post are silly

Once have the initial post, can edit it to above 1000 characters.

I read your whole post, and I won't comment on the rest of it because this is where we disagree and we can't get past that:

We will just have to agree to disagree then.

"Strong" iconic moves. I hope you mean "strong" in the visual sense.
They have never really been stronger than the character, barring XI. They're either an MP sponge(sustainability problem) or there's just better options.
Limited time really has nothing to do with the theme, and X didn't have a timer. XI didn't really have a timer at endgame, and Carbuncle especially didn't.
Earning use? Yeah.

Just going to lightly comment on this part, as will have to agree to disagree on what makes a Final Fantasy Summoner/Summon feel like one. The whole big 5 for me was from a thematic perspective, not a min/max perspective which is how you seem to look at it. When look at them thematically, the summons are indeed as strong or stronger than the character a majority of the time, from a min/max perspective however that goes away because only look at the raw numbers under the best of situations when have all options available. On the limited time, X did have their usage limited, just was done slightly differently due to them replacing your whole party instead of being a single one off ability. And even at end-game in XI, Summons were still limited in duration it was just offset by endgame gear outside of Astral Flow use.