SUMMONER, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE OR ADD? (EVOLUTION & STAT ALLOCATION)

[Ryuko]

I agree with you, but that should be filed under issues with pet AI, and I hope that aside from complaining about the appearance of egi at least some of the posters here are giving feedback to SE on pet AI and the terrible UI we're mired with.

I've seen these "I HATE HOW SUMMONER PETS LOOK" threads pop up more than any other criticisms. There were a few "SMN don't have any burst -- this is stupid" threads during the first week... I guess until people realized we have ways around that and SMN sustained damage is more than enough to make up for our lack in burst when killing adds ASAP. (Fester charges are more than enough to pull your weight on Titan heart, for example... and planning to Bane and spreading DoTs as soon as adds spawn on Garuda will make up for the lack of burst there.)

People also complain about Egi damage without actually parsing to see how much damage the pet actually does. I can't give an exact estimate, but a pet definitely does more than 10%. A summoner's damage is already pretty high... it's usually the pet that sets a summoner's full damage over other players with equal gear. Keep in mind that your pet's stats SEEM to increase with YOUR gear. (Or at least the HP from your VIT does... I haven't strictly parsed pet damage with gear on/off.)

The most legitimate complaint/criticism that I hear involves the fact that summoner operates VERY similarly to an Affliction (DoT spec) warlock in WoW. It's true... although the lore is different... but I can't think of a great 'fix' to this since this is a game that encourages you to ALWAYS be doing something (very rarely do you just 'stand still' like in FFXI). If anyone can think of a great fix to the "Summoner = Warlock" complaint that actually works with this game, please speak up now. Saying, "I wish our pet did more" isn't enough because standing there and commanding a pet just isn't going to work in a fast-paced game like this. We aren't playing FFXI anymore. =/

[Engineer]

I've seen these "I HATE HOW SUMMONER PETS LOOK" threads pop up more than any other criticisms. /

Its Because Final Fantasy has always been about the Summons looking like eye candy. Yes they dont have to be BIG, but the fact they are so small and look like Cute Chibi baby versions of the primals is what people dont like.

As a summoner, the Summons should look like they can protect you, not the other way around. They look like Fancy Minions.

Most gamers understand that having the actual primals as pets dont make sense for the XIV lore, but SE could have made the look of the Egi more Full & Detailed.

I wish SE would have gave us actual summons that they werent going to use as Primals (Ixion, Valefor, Belias, Mateus, Fenrir, Quetzalcoatl ETC.)

There were a few "SMN don't have any burst -- this is stupid" threads during the first week... I guess until people realized we have ways around that and SMN sustained damage is more than enough to make up for our lack in burst when killing adds ASAP. (Fester charges are more than enough to pull your weight on Titan heart, for example... and planning to Bane and spreading DoTs as soon as adds spawn on Garuda will make up for the lack of burst there.)

Summoners arent very good at killing adds quicky since they dont have reliable insta damage moves. Their efficiency against adds are very situational and Inconsistent. Agaist Titans heart, sumoners dont really have a problem. The problem comes more from SMN trying to get players out of the stone titan incases them in.

The aether flow charges arent always there, and still very situational unlike an archers AOE bow, or a Lancers AOE jump. SMN has to pre dot adds, and by then 2 other DD could have taken then down 3 times.

Enkindle Should be reduced to 60 Seconds recast to fix this.

People also complain about Egi damage without actually parsing to see how much damage the pet actually does. I can't give an exact estimate, but a pet definitely does more than 10%. A summoner's damage is already pretty high... it's usually the pet that sets a summoner's full damage over other players with equal gear. Keep in mind that your pet's stats SEEM to increase with YOUR gear. (Or at least the HP from your VIT does... I haven't strictly parsed pet damage with gear on/off.)

10% is very low. The actual Summoner should do 20% of the Pet Damage Since its called a Summoner. The majority of the damage should come from the pet.

Should have been like Scholar, Healing is Number 1 and Dots are 2nd. Pet damage should be number 1, and Dots 2nd.

You can tell something is wrong when when a "Summoner" can perform very well without their pet.

The most legitimate complaint/criticism that I hear involves the fact that summoner operates VERY similarly to an Affliction (DoT spec) warlock in WoW. It's true... although the lore is different... but I can't think of a great 'fix' to this since this is a game that encourages you to ALWAYS be doing something (very rarely do you just 'stand still' like in FFXI). If anyone can think of a great fix to the "Summoner = Warlock" complaint that actually works with this game, please speak up now. Saying, "I wish our pet did more" isn't enough because standing there and commanding a pet just isn't going to work in a fast-paced game like this. We aren't playing FFXI anymore. =

Here is what i think is best.

Pets should do 80% of the Damage while the dots cover the rest.

Fester should be performed through the pet like enkindle and do various things depending what pet is out. Garuda does the norm single target damage fester already does, Ifrit could do a Cone damage version, and Titan can do a PBAOE version which generates more aoe hate.

Moving forward with the level cap increase summoner should only get abilities that involve the pet.

Summoner should Perform through their pet, while dots coming from the summoner should act as a bonus in overall damage.

[Arcari]

I've seen these "I HATE HOW SUMMONER PETS LOOK" threads pop up more than any other criticisms. There were a few "SMN don't have any burst -- this is stupid" threads during the first week... I guess until people realized we have ways around that and SMN sustained damage is more than enough to make up for our lack in burst when killing adds ASAP. (Fester charges are more than enough to pull your weight on Titan heart, for example... and planning to Bane and spreading DoTs as soon as adds spawn on Garuda will make up for the lack of burst there.)

People also complain about Egi damage without actually parsing to see how much damage the pet actually does. I can't give an exact estimate, but a pet definitely does more than 10%. A summoner's damage is already pretty high... it's usually the pet that sets a summoner's full damage over other players with equal gear. Keep in mind that your pet's stats SEEM to increase with YOUR gear. (Or at least the HP from your VIT does... I haven't strictly parsed pet damage with gear on/off.)

The most legitimate complaint/criticism that I hear involves the fact that summoner operates VERY similarly to an Affliction (DoT spec) warlock in WoW. It's true... although the lore is different... but I can't think of a great 'fix' to this since this is a game that encourages you to ALWAYS be doing something (very rarely do you just 'stand still' like in FFXI). If anyone can think of a great fix to the "Summoner = Warlock" complaint that actually works with this game, please speak up now. Saying, "I wish our pet did more" isn't enough because standing there and commanding a pet just isn't going to work in a fast-paced game like this. We aren't playing FFXI anymore. =/

Agree 100%.

The Summoner fanboys need to first get it through their heads that this is not FFXI, nor any other FF in the series. You simply do not have the time to stand there and do your minute long incantation or draw your summoning circle to call out a massive pet of doom. You would go up against the very core of this game.

I can understand egis not looking "cool" enough, because that's mainly an opinionated viewpoint.

You want to know something funny? For whatever reason, it's always Summoner that always gets all the job fanatics up in a bunch. No other job seems to be able to accomplish this (well except maybe Red Mage, and I still remember some stupid rage about Scholar and the fairies in the beta forums, but people have shut up about it since). Saw it in FFXI, and it's reared its ugly head again here. Is the "reputation" of Summoner truly that important that people are willing to make 9001 topics on the "cool" factor? How about just having a job that gets what it needs to done? Aside from UI issues, Summoner is good at what it needs to do in this game.

Also, more opinion: I like the fact that Summoner can hold its own in a fight if for whatever reason your egis are disabled. Self-sufficiency is awesome. Personally, I wouldn't want too much focus on the pet. 50/50 split at the very most.

[Zantetsuken]

The Summoner fanboys need to first get it through their heads that this is not FFXI, nor any other FF in the series. You simply do not have the time to stand there and do your minute long incantation or draw your summoning circle to call out a massive pet of doom. You would go up against the very core of this game.

Yeah, because that doesn't already happen with Meteor LB...

or Raise/Resurrection...

/sarc

Most gamers understand that having the actual primals as pets dont make sense for the XIV lore, but SE could have made the look of the Egi more Full & Detailed.

I wish SE would have gave us actual summons that they werent going to use as Primals (Ixion, Valefor, Belias, Mateus, Fenrir, Quetzalcoatl ETC.)

Yes, yes, and yes. If primals are too powerful, just give us other summons.

We've already seen ARR art for many of them already. Chupon, Siren, Cait Sith, Fenrir, etc. And we currently have Carbuncle. Using those would have been a FAR more authentic SMN design than the "Egis"...

/sigh

We discussed your feedback about the design of the egi with the development team. As was mentioned previously during the Beta test, the design planner reiterated that egi were designed to be a manifestation of a percentage of power taken from the primals and are intentionally designed to appear differently from the primal. As such, we aren't planning on changing the look of egi at higher levels.

We will however continue to take in your feedback when creating new egi that will be added in the future.

What a total letdown

Why didn't the devs just call the job "Evoker" (FFIII) if they were going to deviate so far from the FF SMN tradition?

Nobody would be complaining about betrayed expectations, small egis, etc. if the job was simply called Evoker.

[Engineer]

Agree 100%.

The Summoner fanboys need to first get it through their heads that this is not FFXI, nor any other FF in the series.

Then its simply not "Final Fantasy" (Summoner wise)

You simply do not have the time to stand there and do your minute long incantation or draw your summoning circle to call out a massive pet of doom. You would go up against the very core of this game.

The spells are not a minute long, and are made to summon pre battle. We also have Fast Cast for emergency use. When did a Summoner ever Draw Summoning Circles?

Is the "reputation" of Summoner truly that important that people are willing to make 9001 topics on the "cool" factor?

Its an Iconic job to the Final Fantasy series, So yes. Its not just the cool factor, its the feel of it, and gameplay style.

Feels like a Warlock in a summoners costume.

How about just having a job that gets what it needs to done? Aside from UI issues, Summoner is good at what it needs to do in this game.

The job is very effective, but its not summoner. A summoner performs through their pet. since Its called a Summoner not Arcane mage, its main thing should be Summon damage.

Imagine having a Black Mage that isnt efficient with Black magic? Imagine if ninja was implemented, but it played like samurai, but was still called ninja?

Just because its efficient doesnt mean its the Job.

Also, more opinion: I like the fact that Summoner can hold its own in a fight if for whatever reason your egis are disabled. Self-sufficiency is awesome. Personally, I wouldn't want too much focus on the pet. 50/50 split at the very most.

I think 80% of the damage should come from the pet. If my Summon dies, i should Bind, retreat, then re summon instead of finishing the fight on my own and summon afterwards.

what we have isnt Summoner, its a Arcane Mage/Warlock in a Summoners costume.


I thought the Point of Jobs was having a playstyle that depicts the name of the job? Thinking of the "Summoner" job now seems really silly.

[Ghalith]

(Sorry in advance for the wall of text)

You want to know something funny? For whatever reason, it's always Summoner that always gets all the job fanatics up in a bunch...

A few comments on the "fanaticism":
For a long time (in FFXI) it was only utilized as a gimped White Mage with a larger MP pool, and only a few AoE buffs gave it some sort of use of the avatars until they actually divided bloodpacts into two types.Summoner in XI was crippled for a very long time due largely due to damage output relative to MP consumption. Ironically, those mechanics would probably have a better synergy with the faster-paced FFXIV where we do not need to rest to restore our MP. Though as I understand it, Summoner seems to finally be getting some viable damage/use off of their pets, Avatar's Favor seemed like a good turning point...(continued)

[Ghalith]

BUT: FFXI seemed to fear magic in general, BLM definitely fell from its glory in the advent of TP burning parties, and last I knew they were only valued in specific scenarios to wipe monsters with small pools of HP instantly. Summoner was indeed staffed quite often, Alexander and Odin were a year late, and to date Atomos and Cait Sith are nowhere to be seen. Pet classes in general seem to be the ones that get the most bad press in MMO communities, they are admittedly difficult to balance.

But there is more to Summoner that perturbs me than my Egi's being innocuous-looking elementals. (Though, even if they were increased in size to match the Egi we fight in our mini-trial would make a world of difference!) Arcanist as a class was disadvantaged from the start because it had less window for feedback than the other classes from v1.0. We weren't even able to play the class in beta, so by launch, it seemed like we were beta testing this class and were entitled to our feedback...(continued)

[Ghalith]

I think the Dev team has been wonderful about communicating with the player base, but I am definitely disappointed with the response to this thread. There has been a vocal majority who have raised the same concerns repeatedly, and it seems issues with much less precedence from players have received attention.

At the very least, there should be a re-focus on where our damage is coming from. Since Summoner is linked to Arcanist, we simply aren't going to get rid of all the DoT mechanics of the class. But why do I have Fester? And why is Fester so much more available to me than Enkindle or other pet abilities?

Phew! I apologize again for the wall... But I definitely implore the Summoners who are dissatisfied with the class to keep vocal about it. The devs are listening to us, so keep at it!

[Alberel]

The most legitimate complaint/criticism that I hear involves the fact that summoner operates VERY similarly to an Affliction (DoT spec) warlock in WoW. It's true... although the lore is different... but I can't think of a great 'fix' to this since this is a game that encourages you to ALWAYS be doing something (very rarely do you just 'stand still' like in FFXI). If anyone can think of a great fix to the "Summoner = Warlock" complaint that actually works with this game, please speak up now. Saying, "I wish our pet did more" isn't enough because standing there and commanding a pet just isn't going to work in a fast-paced game like this. We aren't playing FFXI anymore. =/

There's a very very easy fix to this that other MMOs have done in the past: have all the player skills actually cast by the pet. Instead of each pet having just four skills on its hotbar give it 10-15 and allows players to use them in a skill rotation like any other job. If you raised the pet's damage and reduced that of the summoner them self you'd have an active combat system and a high dependency on the pet. Problem solved.

Having said that I personally believe the reason they've avoided that is because they intend to use that mechanic for the puppetmaster when they release it... I can hope right?

[Ryuko]

Instead of each pet having just four skills on its hotbar give it 10-15 and allows players to use them in a skill rotation like any other job. If you raised the pet's damage and reduced that of the summoner them self you'd have an active combat system and a high dependency on the pet. Problem solved.

I don't see any real functional difference between me using the abilities or me TELLING my pet to use the same abilities. If anything, I don't like it because pet AI is currently very dumb. Others have said we should have the ability to turn off/on everything individually -- something I agree with. If I want to turn off JUST one of my pet's abilities (so I can manually use it), that would be nice. Instead, I'm forced to put my pet on passive, tell it who to attack (annoying when killing trash), and instruct it to use other abilities on cooldown. That said... WHY does passive turn back to Guard after EVERY encounter? I'd love if it would STAY on passive for as long as I have it that way.

Adding more emphasis to the pet's AI would really mess up summoner as a whole -- right now -- because the pet is just not SMART enough to be a large, reliable source of damage. There are times where I have to resummon Garuda-egi because she's being dumb, or because she got caught in an unavoidable Hydra fire AoE (by the time you tell her to move, it is too late. She dies. Part of the problem is that we CANNOT command our pet while casting a spell... so you are SOL if you were in the middle of Ruin spamming and you need to move her.) It also wouldn't be 'fair' in certain situations. For example... In Titan, after the first few jumps... if you have your Egi in the right position, she will never get hit by anything. Instead, she will be 'flying' in the air where the large outer platform used to be. Granted, you'll need to stay alive to keep her up... but she can keep shooting away without a care in the world. She never needs to take a break to do anything else. Also... pets take reduced damage (like in other MMOs) to 'make up' for the fact that they can't be moved as fast as players.

Perhaps they will improve the AI in future updates, which is why I'm sure there will be more emphasis on the pet as the level cap increases. Keep in mind that this game is NEW. They are forming brand new jobs (even if they are based on ones that existed in 1.0). Everything is going to get tweaked over the next few months/years. When the pet AI is fixed... do you guys really want to play a game where your pet does everything? I don't want that. I'm probably one of the few people who is more than content with summoner how it is now because I'm sure we'll get more cool pet abilities in the future. We're only level 50 right now. Summoner does GREAT damage and has a lot of utility in certain situations. I have my unique 'role'. We're not like 'any other dps'. I'm okay with how the lore works in this game. Summoner has never been about 'eye candy' for me (as someone else said).

Also, my comment about pets definitely doing more than 10%. I wanted to clarify that the reason I said 'more than 10%' is because someone else claimed our pets only do 10% of our damage. It's actually much more than that. AND that's 'free' damage if you remember to hit the cooldowns. Buuuuuut... it's possible to be a HORRIBLE summoner (I've seen it). Whether or not you are good is still in your hands. I would like that to continue to be true.