SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Duelle]

We also keep garuda out because she doesnt have to run after the mob every time it decides to relocate. She can just continue dps'ing unlike ifrit and titan who have to follow the mob everywhere it runs losing dps

This is a matter of thematics. Would you rather Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi stand with the SMN spamming long range spells, despite the primals those are based on being melee?

The main issue is really that if you're going to do the parallel of imp/succubus/voidwalker for Garuda/Ifrit/Titan-egi, then Ifrit's damage needs to be bumped up and he needs to be given a channeled CC. The succubus could DPS via Lash of Pain spam and could use Seduction to incapacitate a target so long as the succubus was channeling the ability.

That's not even getting into the wonky pet mechanics this game suffers from (bad AI, bad pathing, terrible UI and command options, as well as the inability to truly control what your pet uses on cooldown individually).

add to that she also lives longer so you dont have to resummon every 5-10 minutes cause they die to a big attack or something, thus resummoning and losing both player and smn dps.

This is more because SE chose to not copy one of the more crucial aspects of pet gameplay from WoW - the greatly reduced damage taken from indirect damage sources. If I recall, indirect damage (AoE, line attacks, ground targetted attacks, incidental raid damage) taken by pets is something like 10% of what player characters take.

The funny thing is that this was done because prior to implementation pet classes whose DPS was reliant on the pet would get shafted in raids because dead pet made that DPS a liability (Demo warlocks and all three hunter specs know this quite well). That is also most likely the other reason why egi's relation to SMN's DPS works the way it does, specially when taking into account that egis do not have that native damage reduction and can die easily.

ACN (and SMN) spells scream death, decay and disease. This isn't a summoner's theme - it's a warlock theme. In addition to playing like one, even thematically I AM a warlock, I just summon Egis of Primals instead of demons (and, given their respective universes, aren't they the same thing really?)

Doesn't the bold pretty much justify the approach SE took with FFXIV's SMN?

[Borfin]

Doesn't the bold pretty much justify the approach SE took with FFXIV's SMN?

It would if every Final Fantasy from 3 to 13 hadn't set a precedent for the Summoner class (and summon-users in general) thematically being based around... yknow, summons... instead of death and decay

BLM still casts Fire, Fire II, Fire III, etc. It's still thematically the destructive spells that, for the most part, are recurring in the series.

The same could be said of WHM, PLD (remember Cover?); admittedly I haven't looked through all classes, but those are examples that support it.

It's a large thematic change, which I take issue with. I still have a ton of fun with the class, I just wish it wasn't a WoW warlock carbon copy.

[Kevee]

It would if every Final Fantasy from 3 to 13 hadn't set a precedent for the Summoner class (and summon-users in general) thematically being based around... yknow, summons... instead of death and decay

What precedent?

Because, you know, they haven't.

I mean, the original summoner(Rydia) learned Black Magic, Poison, Bio, Drain, Osomose, etc.

Garnet/Eiko weren't thematically based around their summons.

Yuna was, thematically, based around her summons -- But they were useless besides meat shields to soak up a hit every now and then. That isn't really displaying a "summons" or "summoners" power.

So, again, how is there a precedent?

[Borfin]

What precedent?

Because, you know, they haven't.

I mean, the original summoner(Rydia) learned Black Magic, Poison, Bio, Drain, Osomose, etc.

Garnet/Eiko weren't thematically based around their summons.

Yuna was, thematically, based around her summons -- But they were useless besides meat shields to soak up a hit every now and then. That isn't really displaying a "summons" or "summoners" power.

So, again, how is there a precedent?

In every iteration where Summoners were an identifiable job they had one class command - Summon - and with the exception of perhaps one summon in their entire arsenal they were largely elemental and not death, decay nor disease-based.

(continued)

[Borfin]

In FF3, Evokers had White/High Summons and Summoners had... just Summons.
In FF5, Summoners - you guessed it - primarily Summoned high-damage AoE attacks. Sure you could give them Black Magic, but that was true of any job. FF6-8 didn't have a specified Job, but I can't think of any Summons that inflicted Poison or Sap or whatever depending on the installment. Even if they did, they were rare.
Tactics? Offensive element-based summons with a focus on burst.

XII shifted eidolons from silent protectors to fallen angels hellbent on destruction, so that's a point for the other team, and I can't comment on X-III as I haven't completed it entirely.

Eiko and Garnet both primarily used Summons offensively (Eiko got Holy but that wasn't until the end of the game), Yuna's Sphere Grid is entirely white magic until she cheats and borrows from someone else's. I must have played differently than you, because I recall using aeons on nearly every boss fight both offensively (Grand Summon, etc) and defensively.

Nowhere is death and decay the theme. In fact, I would argue the opposite - Rydia, Eiko, Garnet all are capable of white magic at some point in their games, whereas only Rydia is capable of casting decay-themed spells.

I'm also kind of sad I won't get to cast Hellfire, Judgement Bolt, or Diamond Dust. :P

There is a recurring theme that Summoners depend on their summons for their damage output.

That is no longer the case.

Now it is based on magic the summoner wields (which is different from abilities the summoner uses, note the distinction) and NOT the power of the summon he controls, particularly with a focus on decay and disease.

This irks me.

Again, I love the job - but the sudden shift in thematic design is very jarring. It makes sense for an Arcanist I suppose, but I disagree with it matching the theme of the Summoner.

[Kevee]

In every iteration where Summoners were an identifiable job they had one class command - Summon...

Not really.

There is a recurring theme that Summoners depend on their summons for their damage output.

Uh, No. Again, Rydia, Eiko/Garnet, Yuna, etc. In tactics it was ultimately better to dual-wield whack things. If you needed to AoE, you used a Calculator.

I must have played differently than you

Yeah, you played sub-optimally. Summoning has never been that strong. You always had better options. They feel powerful, yeah.

[Borfin]

Not really.

Care to point me to a Summoner/Caller that didn't have Summon/Call?

6-8 didn't have Summoners or Callers, neither did 12. Besides that, Esper command was a Summon command, as was GF.

Uh, No. Again, Rydia, Eiko/Garnet, Yuna, etc. In tactics it was ultimately better to dual-wield whack things. If you needed to AoE, you used a Calculator.

I liked the part where you ignored my evidence to the contrary on Eiko and Garnet. Besides that, whether a strategy was ultimately better to dual class with or yoink abilities from is irrelevant to the theme of the Summoner job.

Yeah, you played sub-optimally. Summoning has never been that strong. You always had better options. They feel powerful, yeah.

I never said it was and I'm not sure why you're trying to claim that I did. I said "the summoner's main source of damage output was his or her summon". With the exception of perhaps Rydia (which is debatable depending on the level you got into Bahamut's cave at - and even then, throughout the vast majority of the game her Calls outclassed her black magic by a very large margin until she gets the -3 spells and were competitive even then) and borrowing abilities from other Jobs this has always been the case.

None of that has anything to do with the core issue I have with the thematic change which is, again, a switch from elemental and burst to death, decay and disease.

Are you sure you're arguing with the right person? You seem to be taking issue with lots of things I never said.