[Dev1058] Hate Meter / Pros / Cons / Open Discussion

[Aion]

First, let me preface this by saying that after having read the entire post about the changes coming to the battle system I am duly impressed. For any company to completely redesign a game from, essentially, the ground up at such a basic level, with such a fundamental aspect of the game shows a lot of commitment to the fans.

There are some things I love, some things I am indifferent about, and some things I dislike. Even so, seeing the vast changes being made makes me believe that if the things I dislike truly are a detriment to the game, then they will be adjusted.

To that end, I would like to open discussion specifically about the hate meter. I don't like it, but I'd like to see what other people like/dislike about it.

This is how I see things.

Pros:
It is one less detail to worry about while in sticky situations
It makes harder content more available for casual players
It levels the playing field between casual and hardcore players
We get to see more details about the inner workings of the game
It allows for me detailed planning in combat / Everyone can work together to manage hate

Cons:
Easy Mode / You don't have to learn your job as well / The game plays itself
It encourages people to watch numbers instead of the game
What is the point of even having hate, if everyone knows what it is?

This is what I came up with on the top of my head, while being distracted by leves. I'm sure there are other pros and cons. For me, the cons outweigh the pros. I like the idea of having to learn hate management. I like taking pride in the fact that hate management was one of my better skills in FF11, and the reason why people chose me over other white mages (or so my friends said).

Personally, I would rather so NO implementation of a hate meter. It is my hope that SE decides not to use this feature, but I figure that is not going to happen so I would like to suggest some other possible implementations:

Using a White / Yellow / Orange / Red system instead of a hard number or %
Show party names in the party list in a gradual gradient of these colors
This gives us a general gauge of hate, without quantifying it
By leaving some ambiguity to it, maintains the need for skill by players

or...

Only show hate value for the person currently targeted by mob
This gives you some gauge of how well the tank is doing but leaves some ambiguity
Again, ambiguity maintains the need for kill by players to manage hate

These are just a couple ideas.

So. Thoughts? Comments? Points? Counter-points?

OH,we are gonna have automatic button! YAY! next-gen MMO!

[Commat]

I agree completely that it makes for easier game play. However, here's the problems with leaving it out.

1. No one and i mean no one will ever reach max dps/threat without the meter. It's just not possible.
2. If players can't realistically play at 100 percent how can enemies be tuned perfectly? Do they tune them easy and reward sub par play or do they give the meters and tune for max efficiency while leaving the skill to mastering rotations and movement?

Everyone that wants it to go, i get it i really do. But know this, no matter how good you think you are. With the math you will always be better.

I don't know how much people want that kind of thing come into play. Knowing how to ride threat without the meter is fun and challenging in its own right, if people want that to be one of the biggest features of the new system then keep it out if people want movement, timing, and rotation to be the games challenge then put it in.

[Amineri]

So. Thoughts? Comments? Points? Counter-points?

Let me suggest the following: "The key to learning is understanding the consequences of your actions." In order to comprehend the consequences of your actions, effective feedback is needed.

Currently, the only in-game display for enmity is who the enemy is attacking. That is, only the most minimal. This is on par with the how food effects work : the minimal info given, and the players are expected to figure it out. Clearly it's not working with food, and the battle team has decided that more information regarding enmity is a good thing.

However, having a mechanism to display enmity doesn't necessarily turn the game into easy-mode. For one, if a player focuses solely on the enmity gauge, many other things will NOT be attended to, and that player will be less effective then they might have been. In the long run, I see the enmity gauge as a way for players to learn what effect their actions have on enmity, and how that is comparing to the other players -- after that is learned, that player won't need to reference the gauge any longer, or very rarely.

The amount of information given to us is always a sticky issue. However, systems that provide very little information are harsh on new players, and the resultant steep learning curve can provide for a frustrating experience.

I expect that, like most things, the amount of information will probably be a bit more than is needed when first released, and that it will be adjusted later.

[gifthorse]

Auto-attack and hate is generated 1 to 1? WTF!

[Kilta_Firelotus]

ok lets take a look at you cons.

Easy Mode / You don't have to learn your job as well / The game plays itself
This isn't really true. Players can use it tactic to learn their jobs better. Know the limits. In ffxi players just started to zerg stuff w/o caring if tank has hate or not, then cry over death. Also the game won't play with itself. Even if SE didn't add it, players will make an addon if allowed.

It encourages people to watch numbers instead of the game
And this is different then players watching the chat screen seeing their dmg? At least they will be looking at the game. I knew several ppl in other mmo who mostly watched tv while playing.

What is the point of even having hate, if everyone knows what it is
um.............. If people do not understand hate, then they will not know how to manage theirs. Plus everyone is going to know about hate due to job changing.

[h2o]

I hate "hate meter" ...
Yay, this is FFXIV, not FFXI-2 - also it isn't WoW... but this situation just look like wowification.
What next? Ppl pay and game play itself?

[Carmillia]

Pros:
It makes harder content more available for casual players

O.o

You meant so say, it helps people not using their brain play better? Because I don't think one needs to play 18 hours a day to realize that if you buff your party while a mob is engaged, you will likely grab hate whereas if you buff before, it won't...

[Delmontyb]

I'm all for a hate % or display, it helps in parties as well as like you said in your pro's section... I think giving players the option to toggle it off would be a good move, more options for players is always a good move.

I for one will give it a shot, I'm sure I'll like it.

[Kilta_Firelotus]

I hate "hate meter" ...
Yay, this is FFXIV, not FFXI-2 - also it isn't WoW... but this situation just look like wowification.
What next? Ppl pay and game play itself?

WoW isn't the only mmo with it, and it isn't bad either. Hating an addition just because of another game is LAME.

[Malakhim]

I approve of a hate meter. It would make life SO much easier as a tank. Also more strategic when everyone has direct knowledge of how their attacks affect the situation.

Mages will have to think twice before they spam all the powerful shit, and tanks are going to need to know their game.

All and all, there are just so many things to like about that info post.