[Dev1058] Hate Meter / Pros / Cons / Open Discussion

[origamikitsune]

First, let me preface this by saying that after having read the entire post about the changes coming to the battle system I am duly impressed. For any company to completely redesign a game from, essentially, the ground up at such a basic level, with such a fundamental aspect of the game shows a lot of commitment to the fans.

There are some things I love, some things I am indifferent about, and some things I dislike. Even so, seeing the vast changes being made makes me believe that if the things I dislike truly are a detriment to the game, then they will be adjusted.

To that end, I would like to open discussion specifically about the hate meter. I don't like it, but I'd like to see what other people like/dislike about it.

This is how I see things.

Pros:
It is one less detail to worry about while in sticky situations
It makes harder content more available for casual players
It levels the playing field between casual and hardcore players
We get to see more details about the inner workings of the game
It allows for me detailed planning in combat / Everyone can work together to manage hate

Cons:
Easy Mode / You don't have to learn your job as well / The game plays itself
It encourages people to watch numbers instead of the game
What is the point of even having hate, if everyone knows what it is?

This is what I came up with on the top of my head, while being distracted by leves. I'm sure there are other pros and cons. For me, the cons outweigh the pros. I like the idea of having to learn hate management. I like taking pride in the fact that hate management was one of my better skills in FF11, and the reason why people chose me over other white mages (or so my friends said).

Personally, I would rather so NO implementation of a hate meter. It is my hope that SE decides not to use this feature, but I figure that is not going to happen so I would like to suggest some other possible implementations:

Using a White / Yellow / Orange / Red system instead of a hard number or %
Show party names in the party list in a gradual gradient of these colors
This gives us a general gauge of hate, without quantifying it
By leaving some ambiguity to it, maintains the need for skill by players

or...

Only show hate value for the person currently targeted by mob
This gives you some gauge of how well the tank is doing but leaves some ambiguity
Again, ambiguity maintains the need for kill by players to manage hate

These are just a couple ideas.

So. Thoughts? Comments? Points? Counter-points?

[Cairdeas]

I have a feeling its going to work something like "Enmity Damage"

when the fight starts the monster has no Enmity Damage.

Then as players deal damage they also deal damage to Enmity. Who ever has the most Enmity Damage is the one who will currently have the hate for the monster.

Example.

1. Archer pulls a monster using Puncture. Deals 1000 Damage, 1000 Enmity Damage. Archers Enmity damage is now 1000. This number slowly regenerates back to 0 as the archer performs no actions But until someone elses Enmity damage exceeds his the monster will attack him.

2. Gladiator uses a Provoke skill on the monster. Dealing 0 Damage, But 5000 Enmity Damage.

The Enmity Damage from Archer has now been wiped out and the Gladiator has 4000 Enmity Damage assigned to him, maintaining hate on him. As he deals his own damage and uses other hate control skills he'll maintain his Enmity Damage while countering the Enmity damage other players are inflicting.

[origamikitsune]

I understand the principal; that doesn't address the issue in my eyes though. I, personally, do not like the idea of having it displayed, regardless of how it is calculated or what algorithms are used.

[Cairdeas]

I understand the principal; that doesn't address the issue in my eyes though. I, personally, do not like the idea of having it displayed, regardless of how it is calculated or what algorithms are used.

Even if its not displayed, knowing how it works makes it easy to do in your head.

If I was the gladiator in that instance and I know Provoke does 5000 Enmity Damage and the archer did 1000 just now. I know Provoke will compensate and give the hate to me.

Having it visible will allow a player to see that
1. They are exceeding the limits of what their tank can do, and need to hold back till the tank can reaquire an amount of enmity to maintain hate.
2. Prevent overnuking that results in hate bouncing and needless death because a caster wasn't paying attention.

[origamikitsune]

Even if its not displayed, knowing how it works makes it easy to do in your head.

If I was the gladiator in that instance and I know Provoke does 5000 Enmity Damage and the archer did 1000 just now. I know Provoke will compensate and give the hate to me.

Having it visible will allow a player to see that
1. They are exceeding the limits of what their tank can do, and need to hold back till the tank can reaquire an amount of enmity to maintain hate.
2. Prevent overnuking that results in hate bouncing and needless death because a caster wasn't paying attention.

Indeed, and I agree on all your points as you see them; i'm just of the belief that party members should be able to do that without having to see the display for it. By learning thier job and abilities.

[Cairdeas]

Indeed, and I agree on all your points as you see them; i'm just of the belief that party members should be able to do that without having to see the display for it. By learning thier job and abilities.

At this point it has nothing to do with learning the job or abilities. we know outright damage will always do 1 for 1 enmity conversion. so it doesn't matter if I'm an archer or a Pugilist. 1000 Damage hits are going to do 1000 enmity as well.

[Sonic_the_Hedgehog]

Sorry in advance for this short, simple answer, but personally I think all this "hate" for the hate meter will go away if they have an option to turn it off. That's what happened when they implemented /eicon off, no one cared anymore after they did that.

[origamikitsune]

Which doesn't take into account things like cures - is that 1:1 as well? How about non-damaging, non-healing abilities? How about collusion? How much hate does collusion generate, how much of your next attack does it transfer?

There is still some room for learning the job. And again, if it is so dumbed down, why have hate at all? I agree simpler is usually better, but how much is too far, and too easy?

[Cairdeas]

I would hope Cures are a sliding scale. If a single cure does less then 25% of the players total health its 1:1/2 if its 50% its 1:1, if its 75% its 1:2. etc.

[Jynx]

Personally I'd rather just figure it out myself, but I'm not against the idea of the hate meter it lets newer players know if they can let loose some more or need to slow down.

In the long run you will still to know hate management because you don't want to go over the threshold, the skilled players will still shine out from the less skilled ones who think having 20% hate means they can unleash a sidewinder when the tank only had 23% hate.