WAR and Wrath: Important Mechanics Discussed.

[Kunkka]

As for warriors not blowing wrath stacks. Do the math. My inner beast heals for 1500-1600 non crit. 2250~ crit and 3.6k+ with berserk + bloodbath. I would have to take 20k+ healing in 5 stacks of wrath to justify not using it. if I am taking that much damage that fast, I sure as hell better be using my burst heal to live. If I time IB-> infuriate -> IB to be even partial efficiency while berserked, I am winning on healing efficiency.

[Viridiana]

I'm assuming that this screenshot, when it comes, will feature two WARs, not a WAR and a PLD, correct?

[Faction]

I'm assuming that this screenshot, when it comes, will feature two WARs, not a WAR and a PLD, correct?

Listen, if WAR can offtank turn 4, clearly WAR is just as good as paladin.

[Faction]

As for warriors not blowing wrath stacks. Do the math. My inner beast heals for 1500-1600 non crit

Interesting, so your inner beast hits for 500 minimum with just maim? Tell us more! Maybe you can help me unlock the potential, mine only seems to hit for 380-400 and we have very similar offensive stats!

Math doesn't mean very much if it's based off of made up numbers.

[Gamemako]

No, I've actually done up to Coil 3. A bit of Coil 4.

Oh? Well then, next time, I won't give you the benefit of the doubt when you say something absurd.

And yeah, sometimes the challenge IS the reward. Why does everyone always need to be reward for every little thing.

You're playing a multiplayer game. If you want to "challenge" yourself, then walk into your dungeons naked and alone and stop screwing up the game for everyone else. You could make equal justification for AFKing every dungeon. "Well, I just wanted them to have a challenge!" You're just trolling your teammates by gimping yourself, and then profiting from their extra effort.

But as a 'team game' what makes or breaks a party is not how well each person functions individually but how they function together.

This is only true if others are able to contribute to fulfilling that role. In the case of tanking, the individual is almost the entirety of the role. If your HP pool is too small to withstand a hit, then there's nothing your team can do to drag your useless arse through it. Nothing at all. The team is boned because you suck. WHM doesn't gain a "I heal a bad tank! +30% cure potency" buff. You get the same as the good tank, and you just drag the team down.

Like I don't get why so many WAR's I've read on here want a 'stone skin effect' on their Inner Beast when all you have to do is COMMUNICATE with your healers. Just say. "Hey I'm about to use Inner Beast, swap out our next heal for stoneskin."

"Healers, swap out your next heal for the most inefficient ability you have so I can heal myself for one CureII's worth and then make you spend a bunch of extra MP healing more because my Wrath stacks will be down!" Nevermind the absurdity of trying to match that kind of behavior in a situation where constant healing is needed.

All beside the point, of course, because overheal isn't why WAR sucks. WAR sucks because WAR has a fundamentally broken design:

1. Reactive tank with no boosted HP pool
2. Non-scaling self-heals comprise large portion of continuous mitigation
3. Burst mitigation requires reduction in continuous mitigation

Comparatively yes, PLD has the advantage but objectively both tanks have their means being effective in all content.

Why is it that all of the early endgame clears were 2xPLD? Why do people still prefer 2xPLD for BC (e.g. Kunkka's example below)? Why has nobody anywhere cleared with 2xWAR? You're not even saying that WAR can tank, you're saying that WAR can do enough to support PLD in certain scenarios. I hate to be the one to tell you, but WAR is not supposed to be a PLD-supporter, it's supposed to be a tank. It just cannot do what it's supposed to do because it's broken.

Right now to me there are only 2 kinds of WAR.

There is one kind of WAR: the gimped kind.

You endlessly prattle on about "challenge" when it's not challenging to play WAR. You are not able to make a difference at all in "your" success; it all falls on your teammates dragging your fail-laden ass from end to end. Additionally, you aren't even actually tanking content at all. You are a support character because you are unable to tank it yourself. You drag your team through hell because you suck, then talk about the challenge with which you are not met because you are not the one making up the difference.

As for warriors not blowing wrath stacks. Do the math. My inner beast heals for 1500-1600 non crit. 2250~ crit and 3.6k+ with berserk + bloodbath. I would have to take 20k+ healing in 5 stacks of wrath to justify not using it. if I am taking that much damage that fast, I sure as hell better be using my burst heal to live. If I time IB-> infuriate -> IB to be even partial efficiency while berserked, I am winning on healing efficiency.

It took me a few minutes of looking at your character before I noticed the Bravura+1 -- was scratching my head for a while there on how you were getting damage that high, lol. 1500 non-crit heal is about what you'd expect from Valk's work on average, and that formula typically underestimates by 2% or so, so yay math! For those using all ilvl70, they'll be doing about 10% less damage -- though I must admit, your ilvl70 stuff is also pretty damn impressive with 4 level 3 overmelds.

Anyway, re: not using IB, the tank being mashed by two Clockwork Dreadnaughts is taking much more than 1000 pre-mitigation DPS (will have to actually get out out a video to give an exact number, but it's probably around twice that). The loss of Wrath stacks are such that IB is detrimental even with awesome gear. At 1000 incoming DPS, you need to heal ~1600 per 20s to replace the loss of Wrath stacks over time. That is just to match the alternative of doing nothing. Against something like 500 DPS (an amount any tank can sit there and just eat for 40 seconds or so without going down, healers be damned), a WAR dumping IB at 1500 per 20s will recover an equivalent of 23.05% more HP over time compared to nothing at all (no Defiance), which is better than the 15% from Wrath stacks but less than PLD's innate 25% from Shield Oath.

Interesting, so your inner beast hits for 500 minimum with just maim? Tell us more! Maybe you can help me unlock the potential, mine only seems to hit for 380-400 and we have very similar offensive stats!

Math doesn't mean very much if it's based off of made up numbers.

As above, if you're using Maim and SE, I can back up those numbers. Refer to Valk's formula -- it predicts 125.46 damage per 100 potency with those stats, and it is typically a small bit below actual on the higher range (1-2%). If we take it to be exactly correct, then you expect 1505.16 healed per Inner Beast on non-crits with Maim and SE both up.

[Faction]

As above, if you're using Maim and SE, I can back up those numbers. Refer to Valk's formula -- it predicts 125.46 damage per 100 potency with those stats, and it is typically a small bit below actual on the higher range (1-2%). If we take it to be exactly correct, then you expect 1505.16 healed per Inner Beast on non-crits with Maim and SE both up.

Monsters have defense values that you're just flat out ignoring. Hell, with maim and storm eye on a random level 45 mob in Mor Dhana I just hit inner beast for 389. LEVEL 45.

Playing > Theoryplaying.

Here level 35 mob, 396:



Can you back up any more made up numbers? Your word sure means a lot!

[Gamemako]

Monsters have defense values that you're just flat out ignoring. Hell, with maim and storm eye on a random level 45 mob in Mor Dhana I just hit inner beast for 389. Obviously with maim and storm's eye. LEVEL 45.

I stopped doing theorycraft on damage formula in phase 3, when there were no defense values whatsoever. The damage formula did not change from phase 3 to 4, but I never checked for any new implementation of defense. I will have to go back and test again to see about any potential enemy defense or leveldiff reductions.

//EDIT: You have 320 strength. Kunnka has 423. Valk's formula predicts you do 392.44 damage per IB. I think there's no issue here, and no enemy defense.

[Junk4Brains]

This. There's a reason discrepancies for performance throughout the history of MMOs have been dealt with harshly by the community, and why from a design perspective such scenarios should be avoided.

The 22 jobs in FFXI were reduced to 6 "ace" jobs that were accepted in hard content and 16 lol jobs that didn't belong due to intentionally lower performance, bad mechanics or gimmicks that didn't fit in a party setting. WoW raids operated under class/spec segregation for a long time before the devs decided to start addressing that. Lineage II went through a good 2.5 years where you weren't a real tank unless you were a Dark Avenger (which limited your race choices to human and LOL at you if you decided to be a paladin instead).

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As an aside, I'm convinced that the "L2P heard 'round the world" was more lip service, as it was said during a part of the live event aimed at new/prospective players, and it wouldn't do to have Yoshi-P outright admit "yeah one of our tanks isn't up to spec but we're working on it" in front of a bunch of new players and people who may want to pick up the game.

Honestly this really had more to do with player ignorance and 'bestism' than it did back mechanics and gimmicks. If you were around for FFXI's launch and were at all familiar with the history of BST. You'd remember a little mistake that was printed in the Brady's Strategy Guide that misinformed a good portion of the community that a BST's pet lowered the amount of experience the party got. It wasn't entirely wrong, if a BST charmed a pet that was HIGHER than the level of the part yes it would effect group exp but other than that the party's exp was uneffected. This little misprint was corrected in a few months but as someone who mained BST all the way up until the Aht Urhgan content came out it was years and years after this little mishap correct and people where STILL all "OMG if you don't kick the BST from the party then I'm going to leave... his pet will steal our EXP!"

The lesson here and with most MMO's is probably the most important thing I learned in High School Algebra class... and it had nothing to do with math. It was a poster on the wall that read: "A person can be smart but people will ALWAYS be stupid."

Which brings me to the second point. Bestism.
MMO's do have an exclusive community once you get to end game rather than an inclusive one. This is because people are simple and rather than come up with new strategies and tactics to make the best of their group's skills they all flock towards cookie cutter methods and refuse to deviate from anything that is even remotely different. This is two fold, you have your l33t players who are really just a bunch of narrow-minded players who think the best way is the ONLY way to play. In this group there are maybe all of 5% who truly understand why the better classes are really better and the rest who just parrot what they do with a few deviations here and there. And then you have the bandwagon players who really don't care about testing things out themselves but are more than happy to do what the 'cool kids' are doing. So if all the cool kids are all loldrg, the bandwagonners are going to be loldrg and not even know why drg is so lol to the cool kids.

But in every game people act like min/maxers and l33tist make up the entirety of end-game content. And this is where my quote comes from above about the squeaky wheel getting the greasy. These kinds of players make up a shockingly small percentage of the player base. But they are also the most vocal group. But I assure you for every one person that is on here QQ'ing about WAR there is at least a dozen that can't even be bothered to come on to forums because they are having too much fun with the class they are playing. Now if you don't have any friends or you enjoy playing with randumbs, yes... the popularity aspect of your class choice will effect your experience in the game. But soon as you surround yourself with like minded people who enjoy the same gaming principles and play styles as you do. Well all of the above becomes a moot point as you don't have to work to appease the dumbasses but just focus purely on clearing content.

I don't judge a class by how popular it is.
I don't judge a class by what OTHER people think of it.
I only judge a class by two criteria:
"Can I clear content?" and "Is it fun?"

I don't care if another class can do it better. To repeat myself JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS THE BEST/BETTER OPTION DOESN'T MAKE IT THE ONLY OPTION. As long as I can get through content and have fun, that is all I really need out of a class. And I get that with WAR, if you don't maybe you should stop QQ and just play another class.

[Raze_Krauser]

Protip: people are hating on the massive, glaring gap between PLD and WAR. WAR has no real advantages whatsoever over PLD right now. The most effective way to play WAR is as a gimped PLD. All you get out of WAR is a badge that says you could have used a PLD and gotten it done much more easily. This isn't good. This isn't fun. This isn't balanced. It needs to be fixed.

And when it does get fixed, it'll be WAR > PLD....and topics like this become a joke....

the only real reason it's an issue is for those who run Coil, and I can bet that not even 95% of the current player base IS at Coil nor even have it on farm...

By the time that greater population 'gets there', SE "should" have WAR 'fixed' so any tank can be viable to do the endgame without anyone complaining...

Leave all this theory-crafting crap to those who are currently progressing through the Coil....

[Faction]

I stopped doing theorycraft on damage formula in phase 3, when there were no defense values whatsoever. The damage formula did not change from phase 3 to 4, but I never checked for any new implementation of defense. I will have to go back and test again to see about any potential enemy defense or leveldiff reductions.

//EDIT: You have 320 strength. Kunnka has 423. Valk's formula predicts you do 392.44 damage per IB. I think there's no issue here, and no enemy defense.

As most people aren't obvious gold buyers who allocate 30 str, my numbers are much more accurate.