WAR and Wrath: Important Mechanics Discussed.

[Duelle]

Furthermore, when you play a team game, your gimped choice doesn't require more skill on your part, it just requires more skill on the part of your team. That you can be carried does not speak to your skill at all, nor does it make anyone want to bring your gimpy arse to the difficult content.

This. There's a reason discrepancies for performance throughout the history of MMOs have been dealt with harshly by the community, and why from a design perspective such scenarios should be avoided.

The 22 jobs in FFXI were reduced to 6 "ace" jobs that were accepted in hard content and 16 lol jobs that didn't belong due to intentionally lower performance, bad mechanics or gimmicks that didn't fit in a party setting. WoW raids operated under class/spec segregation for a long time before the devs decided to start addressing that. Lineage II went through a good 2.5 years where you weren't a real tank unless you were a Dark Avenger (which limited your race choices to human and LOL at you if you decided to be a paladin instead).

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As an aside, I'm convinced that the "L2P heard 'round the world" was more lip service, as it was said during a part of the live event aimed at new/prospective players, and it wouldn't do to have Yoshi-P outright admit "yeah one of our tanks isn't up to spec but we're working on it" in front of a bunch of new players and people who may want to pick up the game.

[Junk4Brains]

This. There's a reason discrepancies for performance throughout the history of MMOs have been dealt with harshly by the community, and why from a design perspective such scenarios should be avoided.

The 22 jobs in FFXI were reduced to 6 "ace" jobs that were accepted in hard content and 16 lol jobs that didn't belong due to intentionally lower performance, bad mechanics or gimmicks that didn't fit in a party setting. WoW raids operated under class/spec segregation for a long time before the devs decided to start addressing that. Lineage II went through a good 2.5 years where you weren't a real tank unless you were a Dark Avenger (which limited your race choices to human and LOL at you if you decided to be a paladin instead).

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As an aside, I'm convinced that the "L2P heard 'round the world" was more lip service, as it was said during a part of the live event aimed at new/prospective players, and it wouldn't do to have Yoshi-P outright admit "yeah one of our tanks isn't up to spec but we're working on it" in front of a bunch of new players and people who may want to pick up the game.

Honestly this really had more to do with player ignorance and 'bestism' than it did back mechanics and gimmicks. If you were around for FFXI's launch and were at all familiar with the history of BST. You'd remember a little mistake that was printed in the Brady's Strategy Guide that misinformed a good portion of the community that a BST's pet lowered the amount of experience the party got. It wasn't entirely wrong, if a BST charmed a pet that was HIGHER than the level of the part yes it would effect group exp but other than that the party's exp was uneffected. This little misprint was corrected in a few months but as someone who mained BST all the way up until the Aht Urhgan content came out it was years and years after this little mishap correct and people where STILL all "OMG if you don't kick the BST from the party then I'm going to leave... his pet will steal our EXP!"

The lesson here and with most MMO's is probably the most important thing I learned in High School Algebra class... and it had nothing to do with math. It was a poster on the wall that read: "A person can be smart but people will ALWAYS be stupid."

Which brings me to the second point. Bestism.
MMO's do have an exclusive community once you get to end game rather than an inclusive one. This is because people are simple and rather than come up with new strategies and tactics to make the best of their group's skills they all flock towards cookie cutter methods and refuse to deviate from anything that is even remotely different. This is two fold, you have your l33t players who are really just a bunch of narrow-minded players who think the best way is the ONLY way to play. In this group there are maybe all of 5% who truly understand why the better classes are really better and the rest who just parrot what they do with a few deviations here and there. And then you have the bandwagon players who really don't care about testing things out themselves but are more than happy to do what the 'cool kids' are doing. So if all the cool kids are all loldrg, the bandwagonners are going to be loldrg and not even know why drg is so lol to the cool kids.

But in every game people act like min/maxers and l33tist make up the entirety of end-game content. And this is where my quote comes from above about the squeaky wheel getting the greasy. These kinds of players make up a shockingly small percentage of the player base. But they are also the most vocal group. But I assure you for every one person that is on here QQ'ing about WAR there is at least a dozen that can't even be bothered to come on to forums because they are having too much fun with the class they are playing. Now if you don't have any friends or you enjoy playing with randumbs, yes... the popularity aspect of your class choice will effect your experience in the game. But soon as you surround yourself with like minded people who enjoy the same gaming principles and play styles as you do. Well all of the above becomes a moot point as you don't have to work to appease the dumbasses but just focus purely on clearing content.

I don't judge a class by how popular it is.
I don't judge a class by what OTHER people think of it.
I only judge a class by two criteria:
"Can I clear content?" and "Is it fun?"

I don't care if another class can do it better. To repeat myself JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS THE BEST/BETTER OPTION DOESN'T MAKE IT THE ONLY OPTION. As long as I can get through content and have fun, that is all I really need out of a class. And I get that with WAR, if you don't maybe you should stop QQ and just play another class.

[Duelle]

If you were around for FFXI's launch and were at all familiar with the history of BST. You'd remember a little mistake that was printed in the Brady's Strategy Guide that misinformed a good portion of the community that a BST's pet lowered the amount of experience the party got.

I was around for that, and I'll still tell you there was a faulty mechanic in the way BST was designed and balanced. First because pet levels were not normalized upon being charmed, and second because pets affecting exp gained should have never been a downside to playing as BST. If pet level had been scaled to match the master's current level upon being charmed, you wouldn't need to affect exp gained and thus saved yourself the drama as that misprint would have never happened. You can try to blame it on people being stupid, but the game's design and balance are what prompt the reactions from the populace.

MMO's used to have an exclusive community once you get to end game rather than an inclusive one.

Fixed for accuracy. Any smart developer in the post-WoW MMO industry knows that inclusive endgame yields best results in making for a happy playerbase.

This is because people are simple and rather than come up with new strategies and tactics to make the best of their group's skills they all flock towards cookie cutter methods and refuse to deviate from anything that is even remotely different.

You're heavily undervaluing player trends. Much like shit, trends roll downhill. It's a fact of life in MMOs, and instead of scoffing or ignoring it design should keep that in mind when changes are made so that it negatively affects the least number of people possible.

You're dismissing trends as a sign of mindlessness of the masses, whereas they really are an accurate measure of lacking performance.

Now if you don't have any friends or you enjoy playing with randumbs, yes... the popularity aspect of your class choice will effect your experience in the game. But soon as you surround yourself with like minded people who enjoy the same gaming principles and play styles as you do.

You mean create your own cluster instead of actively joining the community at large (or as I call it, "hide behind your friends").

[Taemek]

Honestly this really had more to do with player ignorance and 'bestism' than it did back mechanics and gimmicks. If you were around for FFXI's launch and were at all familiar with the history of BST. You'd remember a little mistake that was printed in the Brady's Strategy Guide that misinformed a good portion of the community that a BST's pet lowered the amount of experience the party got. It wasn't entirely wrong, if a BST charmed a pet that was HIGHER than the level of the part yes it would effect group exp but other than that the party's exp was uneffected. This little misprint was corrected in a few months but as someone who mained BST all the way up until the Aht Urhgan content came out it was years and years after this little mishap correct and people where STILL all "OMG if you don't kick the BST from the party then I'm going to leave... his pet will steal our EXP!"

The lesson here and with most MMO's is probably the most important thing I learned in High School Algebra class... and it had nothing to do with math. It was a poster on the wall that read: "A person can be smart but people will ALWAYS be stupid."

Which brings me to the second point. Bestism.
MMO's do have an exclusive community once you get to end game rather than an inclusive one. This is because people are simple and rather than come up with new strategies and tactics to make the best of their group's skills they all flock towards cookie cutter methods and refuse to deviate from anything that is even remotely different. This is two fold, you have your l33t players who are really just a bunch of narrow-minded players who think the best way is the ONLY way to play. In this group there are maybe all of 5% who truly understand why the better classes are really better and the rest who just parrot what they do with a few deviations here and there. And then you have the bandwagon players who really don't care about testing things out themselves but are more than happy to do what the 'cool kids' are doing. So if all the cool kids are all loldrg, the bandwagonners are going to be loldrg and not even know why drg is so lol to the cool kids.

But in every game people act like min/maxers and l33tist make up the entirety of end-game content. And this is where my quote comes from above about the squeaky wheel getting the greasy. These kinds of players make up a shockingly small percentage of the player base. But they are also the most vocal group. But I assure you for every one person that is on here QQ'ing about WAR there is at least a dozen that can't even be bothered to come on to forums because they are having too much fun with the class they are playing. Now if you don't have any friends or you enjoy playing with randumbs, yes... the popularity aspect of your class choice will effect your experience in the game. But soon as you surround yourself with like minded people who enjoy the same gaming principles and play styles as you do. Well all of the above becomes a moot point as you don't have to work to appease the dumbasses but just focus purely on clearing content.

I don't judge a class by how popular it is.
I don't judge a class by what OTHER people think of it.
I only judge a class by two criteria:
"Can I clear content?" and "Is it fun?"

I don't care if another class can do it better. To repeat myself JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS THE BEST/BETTER OPTION DOESN'T MAKE IT THE ONLY OPTION. As long as I can get through content and have fun, that is all I really need out of a class. And I get that with WAR, if you don't maybe you should stop QQ and just play another class.

Brillant post Junk, perfectly said and people need to take note of this post.

[antiviolence]

Brillant post Junk, perfectly said and people need to take note of this post.

Hey Taemek... still waiting for you to post on your 'alt'.. or your 'main'..
Unless you were lying then..

[oceanlord]

Brillant post Junk, perfectly said and people need to take note of this post.

why did you run away from your bullshit?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...arrior-Threads