I feel bad for Tanaka. (Tanaka appreciation thread)

[Gramul]

Dont care much for Tanaka, he got what he deserved. Made a game for himself ignoring everyone elses opinion.

As it turns out, this is not an uncommon practice for success.

I am not influenced by the techniques or fashions of any other motion picture company.

I do not like to repeat successes, I like to go on to other things.

I still hold the belief that if his vision was complete, it would have been a completely different story. But he's gone now, and we should encourage Yoshi to make a game we can all love and still distinctly feel Final Fantasy. When the battle system is done, he may move on to work on things that Tanaka would have liked to introduce, or maybe he'll add something completely different. It's still too early to tell.

[Onidemon]

As it turns out, this is not an uncommon practice for success.




I still hold the belief that if his vision was complete, it would have been a completely different story. But he's gone now, and we should encourage Yoshi to make a game we can all love and still distinctly feel Final Fantasy. When the battle system is done, he may move on to work on things that Tanaka would have liked to introduce, or maybe he'll add something completely different. It's still too early to tell.

Dude i don't mean to be rude or anything but you don't make much sense. How could the battle system have been more completed then it is now? The game mechanics are pretty much done and are complete in regards to his vision. He wanted it to be this way. But in the end it just sucks and it's boring.

And if you're going to give me any arguments about how he was going to complete it, keep in mind that nothing can be changed! We are talking about completing a system here so it's all about adding stuff. The spells suck visually and they suck in practice too. Every ability feels the same to me. Whatever ability i chose to use feels the same... it's like it doesn't matter much what i do. No real buffs too in this game... combat involves very little strategy.

The fatigue system is horrible and looking at all the threads around you will see how the majority hates it. Even before the game was out and Tanaka was discussing the fatigue system, everyone was against it. Guess what? he decided to add it anyways and people hate it.

The armory system... pick and chose every ability you want across the board and make yourself a custom class. The idea at it's core is interesting but the execution is really bad. He should have really seen this coming. Doing that will result in all classes being the same in the end. He should have added some restrictions and don't tell me he was going to because that is CHANGE not COMPLETING something.

You don't come up with a broken game based on your bad decisions and then say well it's incomplete. Not it's not incomplete. The only incomplete things about what he tried to do is the content and he was so sure that we would end up enjoying all his systems once we got dungeons and stuff to do in game.

Do you think so many people would have voted for an extreme change if all that needed to be done is tweakings to complete Tanaka's work? SE are not idiots, they would rather tweaks stuff quickly then change everything start from scratch, which takes months and generates hate from the community because of the long wait time.

Tanaka screwed up. HE thinks so himself, SE thinks so, Yoshi-p does too and all the community(leave a few here and there) think so too. People make mistakes, we are human and so is Tanaka, He did a mistake and he payed for it.

[Gramul]

Dude i don't mean to be rude or anything but you don't make much sense. How could the battle system have been more completed then it is now? The game mechanics are pretty much done and are complete in regards to his vision. He wanted it to be this way. But in the end it just sucks and it's boring.

Well, for example, pugilists where originally supposed to have different stances and be able to steal. And there's also the matter of the system not being well explained.

And if you're going to give me any arguments about how he was going to complete it, keep in mind that nothing can be changed! We are talking about completing a system here so it's all about adding stuff. The spells suck visually and they suck in practice too. Every ability feels the same to me. Whatever ability i chose to use feels the same... it's like it doesn't matter much what i do. No real buffs too in this game... combat involves very little strategy.

Who said nothing could be changed? I'm sure with many concepts dropped, the system already in place would have to be altered to accommodate the changes. If they where to be reintroduced, the system would either have to change again or perhaps the system could somehow lend itself to the old concepts.

The fatigue system is horrible and looking at all the threads around you will see how the majority hates it. Even before the game was out and Tanaka was discussing the fatigue system, everyone was against it. Guess what? he decided to add it anyways and people hate it.

The system was made to encourage people to level many jobs so they wouldn't feel stale in one job. The system in place is made to encourage development of a personal job by use of combining skills from other jobs. Was it the best decision? Probably not, but I can appreciate the idealism and vision behind it.

The armory system... pick and chose every ability you want across the board and make yourself a custom class. The idea at it's core is interesting but the execution is really bad. He should have really seen this coming. Doing that will result in all classes being the same in the end. He should have added some restrictions and don't tell me he was going to because that is CHANGE not COMPLETING something.

Again, change is fine. I'm not going to follow your arbitrary rules. But all classes couldn't be the same, as some people will want to focus on being a damage dealer, some on healing, some on stat effects, and some on tanking. You can't use all the abilities you want, the game doesn't allow it.

You don't come up with a broken game based on your bad decisions and then say well it's incomplete. Not it's not incomplete. The only incomplete things about what he tried to do is the content and he was so sure that we would end up enjoying all his systems once we got dungeons and stuff to do in game.

It's clearly incomplete. We have tons of blocked off areas, no chocobos, no airships, missing attributes for jobs, and tons of junk coded into the game that we can't get to yet.

Do you think so many people would have voted for an extreme change if all that needed to be done is tweakings to complete Tanaka's work? SE are not idiots, they would rather tweaks stuff quickly then change everything start from scratch, which takes months and generates hate from the community because of the long wait time.

The whole poll thing happened after Tanaka was booted from the project. By that point, I believe people where ready for an extreme change as the original head man was gone. New director, new direction.

Tanaka screwed up. HE thinks so himself, SE thinks so, Yoshi-p does too and all the community(leave a few here and there) think so too. People make mistakes, we are human and so is Tanaka, He did a mistake and he payed for it.

I think so too. I'm just saying I appreciate his original vision and I don't think he's solely to blame and he shouldn't receive so much ire for it. The game was rushed out and they had poor internal communication this made it very difficult for him to accomplish his vision for the game and many aspects had to be dropped in order for him to complete it on time. We have the evidence for it from the official site to the actual coding in the game.

[Onidemon]

Well, for example, pugilists where originally supposed to have different stances and be able to steal. And there's also the matter of the system not being well explained.

That's great for pugilists... steal would not have made any difference. Stances is a cool idea but it doesn't fix the over all battle system.

Who said nothing could be changed? I'm sure with many concepts dropped, the system already in place would have to be altered to accommodate the changes. If they where to be reintroduced, the system would either have to change again or perhaps the system could somehow lend itself to the old concepts.

Well if Tanaka was still in charge and was able to complete his game to his vision like you stated before. We would have the exact same systems but with added stuff which i don't see how it could make it better. If you try to eat crap, even if you add sugar on top it will still taste like crap....

I appreciate that you agree that change is needed but Tanaka would not have change anything. That's how he envisioned the game. After adding a few dungeons, monsters, items and quests. He would have realized that people still don't like the game and maybe then he would have started to make changes, which would have brought us to the point we are today but somewhere in 2012-13...

The system was made to encourage people to level many jobs so they wouldn't feel stale in one job. The system in place is made to encourage development of a personal job by use of combining skills from other jobs. Was it the best decision? Probably not, but I can appreciate the idealism and vision behind it.

You can't force people to do something they don't want to. It's called freedom of choice. If i don't want to level a mage i just won't. If i don't want to craft then i won't. If i'm forced to do so then i'm gone! When you order a cheeseburger and you get a salad instead, do you say you appreciate their concern for your health and leave with the salad or do you ask for what you wanted? People were against the idea of such a system so the right thing to do is to please your customers.

Again, change is fine. I'm not going to follow your arbitrary rules. But all classes couldn't be the same, as some people will want to focus on being a damage dealer, some on healing, some on stat effects, and some on tanking. You can't use all the abilities you want, the game doesn't allow it.

True but you agree that if i want to Tank and so do you, we would both use the same abilities right? As opposed to a game like WOW where Death knights, warriors, paladins, druids can all tank using their UNIQUE abilities and strategies.

Tanaka's system kills uniqueness and has no variety.

It's clearly incomplete. We have tons of blocked off areas, no chocobos, no airships, missing attributes for jobs, and tons of junk coded into the game that we can't get to yet.

Blocked areas are what he couldn't finish in time. If he was still in charge you wouldn't see Chocobos or Airships for a while as he stated himself that he thought they would be useless due to the teleport system.

The whole poll thing happened after Tanaka was booted from the project. By that point, I believe people where ready for an extreme change as the original head man was gone. New director, new direction.

I think it's the state of the game that pushed them to want an extreme change. Nobody could stand the game the way it was and the only reason people even stayed is because they believe that change will make the game into what they hoped it would be.

Tanaka would still be in charge if his mistakes where not that important.

I think so too. I'm just saying I appreciate his original vision and I don't think he's solely to blame and he shouldn't receive so much ire for it. The game was rushed out and they had poor internal communication this made it very difficult for him to accomplish his vision for the game and many aspects had to be dropped in order for him to complete it on time. We have the evidence for it from the official site to the actual coding in the game.

I don't understand how you can appreciate his vision, i wish i could see what you see because there is nothing about his decision i like. I wouldn't even have tried to use the same races as in FFXI(he just renamed them....).

Of course he is not the only one to blame. But a big part of the blame is on him because he was the man in charge. Don't think for a second that the team in charge of the battle system did whatever they wanted and Tanaka was like "Well i don't have any say in it...". Same goes for all the other teams. They all worked to bring his visions to life. He was the one in charge of the direction the game would take. This right here is what he is to blame for.


Now for the huge lack of content, no matter how much most you guys think SE are tyrants and how much you think you know about what kind of pressure the management team put on him, he still had 5 years to work on this game. Now even if you make stuff that sucks, it's not possible to take that long and only come up with the amount of stuff FFXIV has.

They must have had many many technical problems with the engine or they must have started a whole different game (probably something more in the lines of the tech demo of 2005) and ended having to scrap that and start from scratch for a reason we will never know. That is the part where MAYBE he's not to blame for....

[Gramul]

First of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me. Your input on my views has been very insightful to how I feel about how this game is progressing. I only want to point out the reasoning behind a few of my opinions and then I think it would be best if we agree to disagree and stop the argument.
Firstly:

True but you agree that if i want to Tank and so do you, we would both use the same abilities right? As opposed to a game like WOW where Death knights, warriors, paladins, druids can all tank using their UNIQUE abilities and strategies.

What if I'm a tank that wants to heal himself and you're a tank that wants to strike paralyzing hits? There's only so much action points that we can use and we won't necessarily grow into the same thing, because we have different preferences. It allows for many routes of growth and I appreciate the originality of the vision behind it. However, if it goes to be replaced by a more traditional set up, I will not be upset.

Of course he is not the only one to blame. But a big part of the blame is on him because he was the man in charge. Don't think for a second that the team in charge of the battle system did whatever they wanted and Tanaka was like "Well i don't have any say in it...". Same goes for all the other teams. They all worked to bring his visions to life. He was the one in charge of the direction the game would take. This right here is what he is to blame for.

Just because Tanaka was the man in charge did not mean his word was absolute. It is understood that there has been a communication problem withing Square for years now and that could easily have resulted in the overall lack of completion and content presented in the past 5 years.

I appreciate his vision behind and I see the reasoning behind it. It does not mean I necessarily think it was the best direction to go, I just don't think he deserves the massive hate he gets here.

In the end, he's gone. Complaints against him hold no value and really only serve to heat up spite and perpetuate negativity where it is not needed or helpful to the growth and development of the game.

Again, thank you for taking the time to read and discuss this with me.

[Quanta]

As it turns out, this is not an uncommon practice for success.

Tanaka could possibly be a Disney, and fail just as much as he succeeds, learning from each failure and applying it to his later work. However, he could just as easily be a George Lucas, putting out passable products when he's listening to others, utter shit when he's listening only to himself, and learning absolutely nothing along the way. Both methods will make you seem successful; only one will make you look like a genius.

[Onidemon]

Tanaka could possibly be a Disney, and fail just as much as he succeeds, learning from each failure and applying it to his later work. However, he could just as easily be a George Lucas, putting out passable products when he's listening to others, utter shit when he's listening only to himself, and learning absolutely nothing along the way. Both methods will make you seem successful; only one will make you look like a genius.

Because he wanted to make something different then FFXI he did not apply anything he learned from that game. Because he wanted to be different from WOW, he did use anything from that game either.. even stuff that are common in all mmorpgs.

It's like if Honda tried to make a car but not use anything the other car companies do. How impossible is it to do that? And even if you succeed somehow... would you even call it a car?