"Warrior tank sucks!" opinions only based on one or two factors atm?

[Ysarel]

The PLD cooldowns are all better, and actually more usable, and scale better with monster damage, but the WAR cooldowns provide a significant amount of mitigation.

The biggest difference is Shield Oath v. Defiance/Inner Beast, the ability to block, and the STR reduction from Rage of Halone.

Add Rampart vs Foresight to that list. Foresight only mitigates about 7~8% of incoming physical damage vs the flat 20% reduction from Rampart. Plus PLD can use Foresight if they really want to, but WAR doesn't get Rampart.

Killing faster is ALWAYS important...

Bingo. This is what I was talking about earlier when I was talking about how WAR can be functional but PLD is of comparable or greater efficiency and thus there is still a need to balance the two jobs.

[CianaIezuborn]

So, I've been searching what a tank swap is, and I don't think you get the idea at all.

I'm going to be an elitist for a bit. Just realized I'm debating raid tactics with someone that had to do a google search to figure out what a tank swap is.

[PessimiStick]

I'm going to be an elitist for a bit. Just realized I'm debating raid tactics with someone that had to do a google search to figure out what a tank swap is.

I laughed at that too. Clearly he's an authority on raiding and we should be taking his strategies more seriously!

[Kitru]

Interestingly enough, there is a rough parity between mitigation from cooldowns. The PLD cooldowns are all better, and actually more usable, and scale better with monster damage, but the WAR cooldowns provide a significant amount of mitigation.

I used to think that there was a reasonably facsimile of parity between the two tank CD suites, but, after actually playing a PLD and doing some endgame content, it's not even close. The mitigation that the WAR CDs provide is inferior mainly because they are universally lower in practical value while only being marginally higher in uptime.

Assume an arbitrary case where incoming damage is 1.5k per GCD with a 2:1 phys:magic split (ignoring mitigation differences; we're discussing CDs, which are multiplicative and therefore unaffected by disparate mitigation constructs) and the tank dealing 250 damage per GCD with 6.5k hp.

The WAR CD suite is comprised of Foresight, Featherfoot, Convalescence, Bloodbath, Thrill of Battle, Awareness, and Second Wind.
Foresight, at 7.5% real DR, would provide 16.67 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.075 * 1000 * 8 / 36).
Featherfoot would provide 25 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.15 * 1000 * 6 / 36).
Convalescence, assuming healing parity with incoming damage, would provide 50 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.2 * 1500 * 8 / 48).
Bloodbath would provide 20.83 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.25 * 250 * 12 / 36).
Thrill of Battle would provide 27.08 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.2 * 6500 / 48).
Awareness, given a 10% baseline crit chance on physical attacks, would provide 4.17 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.1 * ((1 - (1 / 1.5)) * 1000) * 6 / 48).
Second Wind, with a 25% crit rate, would provide 14.06 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (600 * (1 + .25 * .5) / 48).

The PLD CD suite is comprised of Rampart, Sentinel, Foresight, Convalescence, Bulwark, Hallowed Ground, Awareness, and Bloodbath.
Rampart would provide 66.66 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.2 * 1500 * 8 / 36).
Sentinel would provide 33.33 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.4 * 1500 * 4 / 72).
Foresight, at 7.5% real DR, would provide 12.5 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.075 * 1000 * 8 / 48).
Convalescence, assuming healing parity with incoming damage, would provide 75 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.3 * 1500 * 8 / 48).
Hallowed Ground would provide 35.71 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (1 * 1500 * 4 / 168).
Bulwark, using a 15% block chance and 23% block value as a baseline, would provide 11.91 hit points per GCD, averaged over time ((1 - (1 - 0.75 * 0.23) / (1 - 0.15 * 0.23)) * 1000 * 6 / 72).
Awareness, given a 10% baseline crit chance on physical attacks, would provide 6.94 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.1 * ((1 - (1 / 1.5)) * 1000) * 10 / 48).
Bloodbath would provide 10.42 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.25 * 250 * 6 / 36).

Total that up and you get 157.81 for WAR and 252.48 for PLD. As damage gets higher, the PLD CD suite only looks better and better. There really isn't any real parity between the two CD suites: PLD is just explicitly *better*. Even if you decide to add Inner Beast + Infuriate to the mix (treating it as a CD rather than a part of mean mitigation; recognize that, if you do this, you're essentially negating *all* self-healing from the WAR mitigation equation, so the 8.7% disparity in healing required is not mollified in the least), you're only adding 83.33 (2000 / 24), and that's assuming you save Berserk and Internal Release for that IB, which still leaves you with an 11.34 hp/GCD discrepancy the, once again, only gets wider.

You have to jump through a crapton of hoops to consider the WAR CD suite the equivalent of the PLD CD suite and all of those hoops are going to serve only to make the mean mitigation disparity worse. Even if you *do* make the claim, the WAR CD suite *still* ends up worse than the PLD CD suite.

The more analysis that gets done, the worse WAR looks. Claims of equivalent or superior performance on the part of the WAR continually get disproven. I really have to wonder if/when the devs are actually going to step in and recognize this. There's a limit to what player skill can do with a given tool set and, honestly, the more WAR gets broken down, the weaker the tool set keeps getting.

[Hachiko]

Kit, I just got done doing a similar exercise, but I used different numbers. I'll modify them here.

I assumed 1400 average inner beast (this is averaging crit and non-crit, assuming Maim / Storm's Eye is up every time), 7000 WAR HP, 770 incoming DPS, ~100 tank DPS. I also assumed 100% physical, blockbable damage (Basically, Caduceus fight). I also assumed 26% block value as that seems to be standard for Holy Shield +1 PLD's. Finally, I left off Awareness because I don't know if I am safe assuming bosses have a crit rate of 10% and even if they do, they certainly don't crit on specials like Rock Buster / Mountain Buster / hood swipe, etc. I also counted Foresight slightly higher at 10% but that isn't really enough to matter. For this I'll use 7.5%. Also, I counted Berserk as a defensive cooldown (though I left off Internal Release as it seems slightly speculative). Finally, I didn't count Second Wind because I think it's a bad cooldown, personally.

For Convalescence, I took the amount of damage needing to be mitigated and considered that roughly the amount of healing needed, then I looked at the difference between healing required before and after.

So if a boss is doing 770 DPS, that's low enough that a WAR should be using Inner Beast whenever possible unless they are saving it for spike damage. Again, assuming a fight like Caduceus most of the damage is predictable. For this reason, I treated Infuriate as it is: a 7% increase in healing recieved for 20 seconds on a 60 second CD. And using Inner Beast every 20 seconds is essentially a net heals per second of 70, which reduces the damage to be mitigated to roughly 700 (not exact when it comes to foresight, but close enough). Also, for this reason I am clearly counting the Defiance bonus as 8%, due to that being roughly the average assuming you use Inner Beast every 20 seconds and only use it after you've used Heavy Swing.

Using my numbers:
Foresight .075 * 20 * 700 / 90 = ~11.7 DPS mitigated
Featherfoot .15 * 15 * 700 / 90 = ~17.5 DPS mitigated
Bloodbath @100 DPS 100 * .25 * 30 /90 = ~8.3 DPS mitigated
Thrill of Battle 1400 / 120 = ~11.7 DPS mitigated

Convalescence - base HPS required = 648, HPS required during convolescence 546. Difference = 102 HPS. 102 * 20 / 120 = ~17 DPS mitigated
Infuriate - Since I'm counting using Inner Beast every time it's up, essentially, it works out to ~8% healing increase for 20 seconds on a 60 second CD. Base is the same as w/ Convo. With IB it's 608 HPS required, a difference of 40. 40 * 20 / 60 = ~13.3 DPS mitigated.

Berserk = Increase Inner Beast damage to roughly 2k averaged. a difference of ~600. 600 / 90 = ~6.7 DPS mitigated (potentially double if you Double IB during a Berserk).

This totals ~86.2 DPS mitigated for WAR, or about 12% of the incoming damage.

For PLD 770 DPS is cut to 616 incoming damage via Shield Oath (though I am still assuming that Rampart / Sentinel are additive, so their reduction is based off of 770 not 616).

Foresight .075*20*616/120 = ~7.7 DPS mitigated
Rampart .2*20*770/90 = 34.2 DPS mitigated
Sentinel .4*10*770/180 = 17.1 DPS mitigated
Bulwark .6*.26*15*616/180 = 8 DPS mitigated
Bloodbath @100 DPS 100*.25*15/90 = 4.16 DPS mitigated

Convalescence - Base HP/S required = 616 after Conva 456, a difference of 160. 160 * 20 /120 = 26.7 DPS mitigated
Hallowed Ground* 616 * 10 / 480 = ~13 DPS mitigated

* I don't like to count hallowed ground because just counting how much DPS it mitigates trivializes its usage. It is much better than that, and I consider it a factor but I don't like counting it as a traditional mitigation cooldown. It looks like one of PLD's worst cooldowns if examined in this light, but it's clearly their best. But I added it here for kicks.

This leaves PLD with a total of 110.9 DPS mitigation. Though in fairness this is significantly higher due to the incoming damage of PLD only being 616, it's effectively 18% of incoming DPS mitigated. I personally leave off Hallowed Ground though, which drops it to ~98 DPS mitigated, which is much closer to WAR's 86.2, and ends up being ~16% incoming DPS mitigation.

So I suppose you are right. Even using my numbers, methodology, and preferences, PLD's have ~30-50% advantage in terms of mitigation from cooldowns. I guess I was selling PLD cooldowns short by saying there was a parity. And it is worth conceding the point that getting all of that out of your cooldowns is going to be between difficult and impossible for practical terms, because it means never getting an ounce of overhealing on WAR, along with a near perfect rotation, which is unlikely.

I still stand by my assertion that the passive mitigation is a bigger deficit, though. And the fact is that Shield Oath begins to outperform Inner Beast/Defiance at incoming DPS levels ~400.

[Nalou]

I'm going to be an elitist for a bit. Just realized I'm debating raid tactics with someone that had to do a google search to figure out what a tank swap is.

Please, be elitist, cause you just made my point.
Elite players and normal players shouldn't apply the same strategies and play the same way.
All your talk about efficiency seems pointless to me, since I'm considering having fun playing a game.

However, I doubt anyone so narrow-minded can be any elite.
Best we can expect from you is just another random annoying elitist lad.


On a side note, I just checked your character profile and unless you're wearing town gear, you seem really far from being a elite player.

[Kitru]

I still stand by my assertion that the passive mitigation is a bigger deficit, though.

A lot of it depends upon what you consider to be a CD and what you consider to be part of the passive mitigation construct of WARs. For PLD, it's pretty obvious: CDs are for emergencies; you don't really use them as part of your fundamental survivability model (Bloodbath *might* get used like that, but that's a single mediocre CD compared to everything else that PLD gets). For WAR, you've got Inner Beast, which could be treated as a CD or averaged assumed contribution; Bloodbath, which is only really remotely useful when you're using it on CD because it doesn't provide healing in big bursts like it needs to; and Featherfoot, which, because it's a comparatively small value of heavily RNG based mitigation that only really becomes useful when you start going Law of Large Numbers on it.

If you consider those to be part of the fundamental mean mitigation model, WAR doesn't look like its falling behind all that far on mean mitigation (it's still behind, however) but looks like it has an utterly abysmal CD suite; if you consider them to be CDs, WAR looks absolutely terrible from a mean mitigation standpoint with a CD suite that falls behind but not a *huge* amount behind.

Arguing whether WAR sucks because of its CD suite or because of its mean mitigation model is semantic: WAR is simply *worse*. *How* it's worse exists on a sliding scale depending upon exactly how you define certain aspects of the class. Just like WAR damage and enmity, WAR either has decent damage and bad enmity or bad damage and good enmity: WAR either has marginally sub-par mean mitigation and utterly terrible CD suite or utterly terrible mean mitigation and a marginally sub-par CD suite.

[Coramac]

For WAR, you've got Inner Beast, which could be treated as a CD or averaged assumed contribution; Bloodbath, which is only really remotely useful when you're using it on CD because it doesn't provide healing in big bursts like it needs to; and Featherfoot, which, because it's a comparatively small value of heavily RNG based mitigation that only really becomes useful when you start going Law of Large Numbers on it.

To compare to a Paladin, you need to reduce the healing value of IB.

You don't actually need law of large numbers on Featherfoot depending on how many attacks we're talking about in a burst scenario and what your base evasion rate is. 0% base, it's complete garbage. At 15% base, it's pretty solid. Still a bit of a gamble on the RNG but definitely acceptable as a legitimate defensive CD.

[Nalou]

You are taking the same damage and are healing the same amount. Whether you split the damage/heals makes no difference to how much throughput there is.

You have a double HP pool. So instead of having one player able to take 5k damage, you have two players able to take 5k damage each, so you can take 10k damage in a row.

About healing, at first sight it's not more efficient, in fact it seems a little bit less efficient since unavoidable AoEs will hit the two tanks.

On second though, a larger HP pool means a larger margin to cast healing spells. You do not need to constantly spam big mp expensive cures on your tank to keep them alive. It means you gain some time.
Time gives you the ability to use MP efficient spells.
Chances to get Stoneskin up more often, chances to get the free cures proc...

So yes, the team will have to deal with the same amount of damage to take... but dual-tanking opens up alternatives ways to do it.

[CianaIezuborn]

Please, be elitist, cause you just made my point.
Elite players and normal players shouldn't apply the same strategies and play the same way.
All your talk about efficiency seems pointless to me, since I'm considering having fun playing a game.

However, I doubt anyone so narrow-minded can be any elite.
Best we can expect from you is just another random annoying elitist lad.


On a side note, I just checked your character profile and unless you're wearing town gear, you seem really far from being a elite player.

Cool, so just so we're clear that we're all in agreement now that ping ponging aggro between two tanks is a horribly inefficient strategy and is just used for fun?

I personally don't think I'm narrow-minded, I'm perfectly willing to investigate new strategies and to reevaluate old methods. But what you proposed I recognized as voodoo dressed as a strategy, and nothing I saw from you seemed to provide logic to make me think otherwise.

On my equipment, I just hit 50 on Saturday and by saying I was going to be an elitist I was not trying to imply that I'm full AF2 with all turns down in coil. I was pointing out that my next statement was going to be elitist due to the fact that the concept of a tank swap has been a staple in MMO raiding for more than 10 years and that anyone that has done even a casual amount of raiding should recognize the term thereby prompting me to use it in a comical statement in which I realize I'm talking to someone that "doesn't even lift".

Look, I'm sorry if I offended you directly but the fact of the matter is that you put up bad advice on a forum where people look for advice and leaving it unchallenged is just asking for it to spread. I'm sure you're a great person with great hygiene that looks really good in corduroy pants, which isn't easy.