"Warrior tank sucks!" opinions only based on one or two factors atm?

[Sixteen]

Excuse-me, but I don't understand that "off-tank" concept.

That's because there is no off-tank concept. Warriors are not better off tanks, most guilds run BC with two paladins. The only thing warriros are better for is Cm/AK farming. Who would roll a class knowing for a fact that they would be stuck off tanking when their counterpart can do both?

[Airget]

A simple change could be to just add Rampart as a cross class for warrior, since they've shown that they can do it with other abilities such as cleric stance only being Conjurer/WHM/SCH so why not have Rampart be Gladiator/PLD/WAR.

That simple 10% dmg mitigation for 20 seconds with a 90 second cooldown would most likely do wonders for Warrior's tanking potency without overpowering them or making them more desirable than PLD.

[CianaIezuborn]

Excuse-me, but I don't understand that "off-tank" concept.
I'm not lv 50 yet, but I've been tanking for years on FFXI, and we never NEVER had a main tank and an off tank.
We always had a couple of equal tanks bouncing hate, which means tanks working together to take hits alternatively, and also means tanks saving each other by pulling hate from their co-tanker at critical moments.
It also means the healer's job is easier, because two tanks double your tanking Hp pool while splitting the damage taken.
It's also safer for the whole raid/alliance, because, in case one tank dies, you can still survive with the other.
Dual-tanking raises the overall survivability, which also allows more room for offensive actions, instead of being defensive all the time, which leads to faster kills.

So, what's the point of having main tank/off tanks alternate while you could be dual-tanking offensive style ?

What? I don't even know where to start on this one. There needs to be a horrible idea fairy that visits the forums at night and sets posts like this on fire and then lobotomizes the brain it sprang from.

There is a reason that consistently throughout MMO history that relied on the healer/tank dynamic that the most dangerous time in an encounter is during the tank swap, so much so that it's often safer to eat the mechanical penalty for not swapping tanks and bring an extra dps/healer than to perform the swap. Tank swapping requires quick coordination between the healers and tanks, or requires excess healing to cover for lack of coordination that could have been invested in dps.

Also, hate it for Warriors. From my perspective, as a PLD, it's not really the small but significant static difference in effective tanking. It's the massive amount of proactive defensive cooldowns that PLDs get.

[Nalou]

So, I've been searching what a tank swap is, and I don't think you get the idea at all.
I'm not talking about tank swap. I'm talking about having two tanks keeping equivalent levels of enmity. Example:
- paladin uses rage of halone - mobs hits paladin
- warrior uses butcher block - mob hits warrior

So instead of having
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...
you get
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...

So you are:
- taking the same amount of damage but split on two players
- giving your healers more time to heal and your tanks more time to survive



The basic strategy for average level players should always be to have every vital pawn twice in the team. It means two tanks and two healers.
Killing faster is rarely an important matter, as you almost always have time to finish the runs if you play well.

Playing with a single tank to add extra dps have two meanings:
- your team is an extremly good team, and can gain in efficiency. This is great, you're a top level player.
- your dps sucks so you need extra dps. Your tank or healer however, is either a pgm and should move to another guild, or his class is unbalanced.

In the end, not that many players are extremely good players. Most try to copy pro gamers... and fail.


Maybe you should "learn to play" like Yoshi said

[Coramac]

Fixed for you.

Most of the server firsts I've seen for Turn 4 used double Paladin tanks.

Edit: Actually, pretty much all the Turn 4 videos use double Paladin.

[Derza]

So, I've been searching what a tank swap is, and I don't think you get the idea at all.
I'm not talking about tank swap. I'm talking about having two tanks keeping equivalent levels of enmity. Example:
- paladin uses rage of halone - mobs hits paladin
- warrior uses butcher block - mob hits warrior

So instead of having
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...
you get
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...

So you are:
- taking the same amount of damage but split on two players
- giving your healers more time to heal and your tanks more time to survive



The basic strategy for average level players should always be to have every vital pawn twice in the team. It means two tanks and two healers.
Killing faster is rarely an important matter, as you almost always have time to finish the runs if you play well.

Playing with a single tank to add extra dps have two meanings:
- your team is an extremly good team, and can gain in efficiency. This is great, you're a top level player.
- your dps sucks so you need extra dps. Your tank or healer however, is either a pgm and should move to another guild, or his class is unbalanced.

In the end, not that many players are extremely good players. Most try to copy pro gamers... and fail.


Maybe you should "learn to play" like Yoshi said

But why would you do this with 1 warrior and 1 pld over 2 plds? What would be the point of bringing the warrior?

[CurlyBruce]

So you are:
- taking the same amount of damage but split on two players
- giving your healers more time to heal and your tanks more time to survive

Except you aren't. You are taking the same damage and are healing the same amount. Whether you split the damage/heals makes no difference to how much throughput there is. So Player 1 takes 1000 damage then Player 2 takes 1000 damage. Healer 1 heals Player 1 for 1000 and Healer 2 heals player 2 for 1000. How is this any different than Healer 1 heals Player 1 for 1000 and Healer 2 heals Player 1 for 1000? In fact if your healers aren't focusing on one tank the chances of a tank taking a big hit and not receiving the necessary heals from both healers is increased.

[Hachiko]

Also, hate it for Warriors. From my perspective, as a PLD, it's not really the small but significant static difference in effective tanking. It's the massive amount of proactive defensive cooldowns that PLDs get.

The difference isn't small. It's massive.

Interestingly enough, there is a rough parity between mitigation from cooldowns. The PLD cooldowns are all better, and actually more usable, and scale better with monster damage, but the WAR cooldowns provide a significant amount of mitigation.

The biggest difference is Shield Oath v. Defiance/Inner Beast, the ability to block, and the STR reduction from Rage of Halone.

[CianaIezuborn]

So, I've been searching what a tank swap is, and I don't think you get the idea at all.
I'm not talking about tank swap. I'm talking about having two tanks keeping equivalent levels of enmity. Example:
- paladin uses rage of halone - mobs hits paladin
- warrior uses butcher block - mob hits warrior

So instead of having
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...
you get
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...

So you are:
- taking the same amount of damage but split on two players
- giving your healers more time to heal and your tanks more time to survive



The basic strategy for average level players should always be to have every vital pawn twice in the team. It means two tanks and two healers.
Killing faster is rarely an important matter, as you almost always have time to finish the runs if you play well.

Playing with a single tank to add extra dps have two meanings:
- your team is an extremly good team, and can gain in efficiency. This is great, you're a top level player.
- your dps sucks so you need extra dps. Your tank or healer however, is either a pgm and should move to another guild, or his class is unbalanced.

In the end, not that many players are extremely good players. Most try to copy pro gamers... and fail.


Maybe you should "learn to play" like Yoshi said

No gain in efficiency, only loss.

You lose half the duration of any cooldowns on a single tank.

You lose efficiency from either the healers bouncing targets, healers being split on targets, or over heal on either target.

You lose efficiency from having two tanks in tanking stance, as opposed to a tank in dps stance, an additional healer, or a dps.

You lose efficiency from gear on tanks, as the break point is now set to the lower geared tank.

You set your raid up to fail by adding unnecessary complication to execute this.

And you reap zero benefit. None. Nada.

But why would you do this with 1 warrior and 1 pld over 2 plds? What would be the point of bring the warrior?

And this is why threads like this that spread such blatant misinformation and idiocy should be burned like witches. Every time someone reads it and doesn't blink at the sheer stupidity of it, it plants it's seeds in the back of that person's mind. It festers and rots, until it produces a satanic infant in the form of a horrible raid strategy that makes people use inefficient tactics then complain about how difficult a trivial encounter is.

Killing faster is rarely an important matter, as you almost always have time to finish the runs if you play well.

Killing faster is ALWAYS important.

On a fight, killing the mob faster means less mechanics you have to deal which means less chances to fail. It also sometimes allows you to skip mechanics all together(think adds on Demon Wall).

In progression, killing farm mobs faster means more time to spend on the mobs you're actually progressing on.

In farm, clearing raids faster gives your raid core more time to do other activities.

If this weren't the case, you might as well tell your dps to put away their epic weapons and pull out the level 1 starter trash and get this party started!

...

I know I'm being harsh, but harshness is how horrible ideas like this need to be approached before they have a chance to infect other potential raiders in the population.

[CianaIezuborn]

The difference isn't small. It's massive.

Interestingly enough, there is a rough parity between mitigation from cooldowns. The PLD cooldowns are all better, and actually more usable, and scale better with monster damage, but the WAR cooldowns provide a significant amount of mitigation.

The biggest difference is Shield Oath v. Defiance/Inner Beast, the ability to block, and the STR reduction from Rage of Halone.

I may be greatly underestimating the difference in static mitigation, in which case I feel even worse for Warriors.