Warrior: End Game optimum self heal combos, and overall damage mitigation.

[CurlyBruce]

I hadn't even noticed his accuracy. Yeah, no, you aren't hitting shit with 395 in coil. I miss way too frequently as is at 450 and have actually screwed over the second tank in Turn 2 by missing my BB after a voke to steal hate.

Edit: We don't have to "toy with builds" to know why they won't work. We already know WAR can be used as a tank, it was never a question of IF it was a question of WHY. Why bring WAR over PLD when PLD does everything a WAR can do, but better? You build a crit WAR, PLD can go crit PLD and still survive better than the WAR. The flaw is in each jobs abilities not in the gear.

And saying you know 10x more about WAR than anyone else is a far cry when all you really did was realize "Hey if I stack crit rate I can critical hit a lot!" Grade A research there my friend. Now maybe if your research lead to some revelation that WAR can equal or outdo PLD some way we would be singing a different tune.

[HiirNoivl]

this is not the build I take in Caduceus.

It's called more than one gear set. But this is definitely my preferred Set up for everything else. Basically I'll switch out the legs for Darklight legs, and eat some food.

Like magic.

Edit: We don't have to "toy with builds" to know why they won't work. We already know WAR can be used as a tank, it was never a question of IF it was a question of WHY. Why bring WAR over PLD when PLD does everything a WAR can do, but better? You build a crit WAR, PLD can go crit PLD and still survive better than the WAR. The flaw is in each jobs abilities not in the gear.

If you can't figure that out, then you need to play it some and you'll figure it out really quickly. As I've learned, WAR is a Superior Single target Tank. It's also a Superior Multi-target tank. I'm still working on my multi-target macros. My single target macros didn't work as well as I have hoped.

You need to do more research. If you can't be bothered to do it, then don't hamper the efforts or criticize the people that do.

[Onisake]

this is not the build I take in Caduceus.

It's called more than one gear set. But this is definitely my preferred Set up for everything else.

except you continue to ignore the fundamental problem. you're using gear as a crutch.

no other class has to do this. gear unlocks potential. it's not supposed to be a magic bullet. 'hey! I hit 450 crit! I'm magically viable!'

sorry. no. that's not how it works. if that is how it works, than that's the undeniable proof that it's broken.

you keep changing your stance, 'we dont' have gear that's optimized for war! we're using gear that's optimized for PLD!' even though the stats between AF2 of the two classes is marginal, at best.

'no-one uses the CDs we have! we have all these abilities that no-one uses!' except the opportunity cost of these abilities is massive.

everythign you say contradicts good design practices. you contradict yourself between posts. you use data tool that are obviously wrong. you proved some data tools wrong with your own data yet you still use them. I just cannot take anything you say seriously. so you're 'miles ahead' in the wrong direction.

[HiirNoivl]

Skill before gear always.

Sadly, people don't have the skills right, and they complain about mitigation when they themselves are not taking advantages of the buffs. "You Crit more if you stack Crit, duh". It's not "duh". No one understands why WAR gets such a huge boost from Crit. Why? Because no one has researched it. WAR doesn't just get more Crit, it gets 2x more crit from adding Crit rate than other classes. This is even with the buff of Wrath V included. WHY?

No one knows. Worse, no one will even look at it. No one will even try. And worse, people hamper the research and efforts of those who do try and ask "What's the point of trying when we already know PLD works."

You know PLD works because you PLAY PLD and you know how to play PLD becaue of the information that has been posted by others. How much info on WAR is out there is almost 0 compared to PLD and then you wonder why people don't understand why anyone would play WAR?

People are so short sighted that they don't realize that they are passing up probably one of the better designed jobs out there. Having shown with parses what I can do with WAR and having shown with Videos what I can do with WAR, I find it troubling about how people are so dead set on PLD because I've shown that we have only scratched the surface.

Like magic you gain 43 Acc from pants and at most 22 from food (which you won't even get btw because 3% of 438 is 13 not 22) for a grand total of 458 Acc WHICH STILL ISN'T ENOUGH.



So WAR is superior single-target because, what? It does more damage (it doesn't). It's a superior multi-target tank because? It has overpower which is stronger than flash (Flash is sufficient, and you shouldn't be spamming Overpower on WAR anyway). So explain to me again how your gear, which can be equipped by a PLD because they share gear sets, suddenly makes you survive better than a PLD?

I do over 60 more DPS on WAR on stationary single targets than I do PLD. I do 20-25 more damage on moving. There's a reason why my WAR video is a full 5 minutes shorter than my PLD video on the same enemy using the same strategy. FIVE FULL MINUTES.

But you still think that WAR doesn't do more damage than PLD?

You think I spam Overpower which tells me how behind the times you are. When was the last time you played WAR? Have you ever use Steel Cyclone? Have you seen how much boost Steel Cyclone gets with Crit? Have you seen the massive self-heal power of the Crit Steel Cyclone on groups of enemies over 3 when paired with Bloodbath?


Of course you haven't. That's why you still think PLD is a superior multi-target tank as it sits there spamming Flash and not doing much damage.

Not only do a survive just as well as PLD I chewed through enemies to the point that I can solo them for a goodly amount of time as many parties can attest to. How long you solo on PLD? People think PLD can carry people through fights, I just know there have been times where I've beat bosses with only marginal assistance from the other DPS.

We don't ask why because we know it's not true. WAR doesn't get any more benefit from Crit Rate than any other job in the game. You came to this conclusion after stacking crit and running parses in very specific scenarios where Internal Release has a greater up time than normal and you are not getting enough samples for the % to average properly.

And this is not true either. Even if you average out the entire fight, my Crit rate was higher than what I should have had WITH Wrath V and Internal release combined.

Get it?

Where's your parses? Enough armchair quarterbacking and asking me to do all this stuff, why don't you go out there and get some parses? Or are you afraid that I might be right and you have been spending way too long mucking about on a class that can only keep other people from dying and need to start working on learning a job that can actually survive and contribute significantly to the progress of even lesser geared and skilled parties?

no data i have seen suggests war has a higher crit rate than any other class. no data I have personally collected has shown this.

I average about 10% crit rate without defiance. this is base crit rate. this is what I expect. when i keep defiance on i average 20% crit rate. this is what I expect. if i use IR on top of that, once a minute for 5 minutes, i average a 24% crit rate. this is, again, exactly what i expect.

it's not 'no-one knows' and 'no-one will look at it' it's you're the only one asking the question because you're using data tools that are wrong.

The rest of us already collected our own data, and are getting exactly the values we expect. this is because we collected our own data and we didn't rely on random sources found on the internet that haven't been updated in ages and have questionable collection methods.

Sorry but the only Data I have seen is mine.

If you have more information than post it. Post your gearsets, show your parses, reveal your allocations.

I'm up to 30% Crit rate over all on Garuda. You can Watch my video and see that. If you have a question about my collection method than ask it. I'll do my best to answer, but until I see some effort, I will question your efforts, I will assume you have done the bare minimum like everyone else I see who has the nerve to try to pick apart my findings and harp on everything I've done for both WAR and the people who want to play it.

No more theorycrafting and hypotheticals. Put up.

The rest of us already collected our own data, and are getting exactly the values we expect. this is because we collected our own data and we didn't rely on random sources found on the internet that haven't been updated in ages and have questionable collection methods.

it boils down to this: you do what works for you. if your group found a viable way to bring war to all content. good for them. don't presume to tell other players that the fault is with them, when it's your team that is doing the bulk of the work to make you viable.

Again, I don't want to see imaginary Data, either you post it or I'm calling your bluff.

Again, this is complete and utter trash. If you watch my video about WAR you see there's at least one person in the video who doesn't even know the fight. The video opens with me explaining the fight to them. How is a team like that carrying me?

I'm not posting about the hour-long AK run I just did this morning when the WHM and I pretty much carried the DPS as one was dead pretty much on every fight. Is that carrying? Or the Titan video where people insisted on trying to raise the LB meter only to break the heart without using the LB (we wiped after sadly... but they were all inspired! Go Team?)

You can't carry people on Caduceus where my goal is basically to survive until the split so the offtank PLD can run away with the add and I'm being solo healed for the remainder and I have to HOLD BACK so I don't kill my half too quickly.

Okay... I'm sorry what were you saying about me being carried? I didn't quite hear that.

Multi-target tanking is about keeping the hate on all targets. I don't care how much damage you do against all the targets. The only advantage WAR has over Multi-target tanking is Overpower being stronger than Flash, that's why I referenced Overpower. Steel Cyclone is weak. In the time it took you to build up the Wrath V to use it you could have dealt a lot more damage just spamming Overpower. Do I know how much Crit boosted Steel Cyclone is? Yes, 50% the same as every other ability because Critical Hits always grant a 50% damage boost. Steel Cyclone isn't some magical ability that gets more from Crit. A Crit Steel Cyclone with Bloodbath will heal you for 12.5% more than a regular Steel Cyclone. Math is not hard bro, 50% boost to 25% healing is 37.5%. Guess what? You could have healed more spamming Overpower because as stated previously, Overpower is stronger than Steel Cyclone + the abilities you use to get Wrath on multiple targets.

In an earlier thread I did parse against a test dummy and I got the results that coincide with the crit rate testing Valk Dancing-Mad did. I had over 1000 samples by the time I stopped. The only thing I disagreed with the Valk calculator on was how Wrath and Internal Release applied to crit rate, and that's only because of the way the game renders stat boosts in the character screen. For all I know his calculator could be 100% accurate even in regards to the boosts. So mighty funny how with sufficient sample size I got a crit rate that corresponded with tests done by someone else who had a sufficient sample size, yet your amazing sample size of "a couple of bosses in AK" yielded wildly different results. Hey guys I just went and attacked a bee and crit 100% of the time. Then I attacked a rabbit and never crit. Obviously this means my crit rate is 50% because math tells me so.

As WAR you HAVE to care about damage because damage IS you. You cannot survive if you don't do enough damage. This is true against Every Single Fight I've done on WAR without exception. You damage, you live. It's that simple. So if you don't care about damage you deal as WAR, you don't care about survival.

Steel Cyclone is beastial on a Crit, but you won't know that until you actually stack the cards to crit on all targets with Crit. Steel Cyclone is not the OP beast it used to be, but I'd like to see Circle of Scorn do any better. After using Steel Cyclone I can always use Infuriate after. But my build up to Wrath V gets faster with PRACTICE (and Macro help) and it looks like I'm spamming even though I'm not. So even though I can't spam Steel Cyclone and Self heal like in 1.0 doesn't mean that I'm not mitigating. I can get in 2 Steel Cyclones in one Bloodbath (potentially 3) and that's my Self-heal and DPS basically for those larger pulls.

But you wouldn't know anything about that.

You did a parse on a TEST DUMMY and you didn't get a higher Crit Rate then me. That should tell you something both about the difference between your build than mine and the difference than how I play and how you play. Instead, you assume that my data is wrong instead of assuming that "Hey maybe I should look at what Hiir is DOING to get her Crit Rate up that high."

But know, that would require some ounce of humility on your part.

They do have less survivability. What they have more of, however, is being self-sufficient. That's the only reason you can finish the last 10% of a boss without a healer. And I'm assuming this is during an AK run. I can give anecdotal evidence that Warriors are awesome too - Both DPS and the healer died to the Demon Wall and I solo'd the last 30% of it. It's awesome having 3 sub-par players fawning over you like you're a King pulling that off, but the fact still remains - we suck for anything after Garuda.

SE designed a class specifically for being an off-tank, making us definitively inferior in all regards for anything that requires single mob, high damage tanking.

People who suck at the job, suck at the job, the job itself doesn't suck. Just look at the SMN threads about how much SMN suck, and then folks do the research and all of a sudden "Oh wait, SMN is fine." And then "MNK needs a buff, MNK is weak!" only to have people come on and say "Oh wait, no it's not."

WAR is no different. Once you take advantage of what WAR brings to the table there's not much you can't tank.

So far the only things I haven't been able to tank has nothing to do with the job or my skill and everything to do with people and their prejudice and people not letting me even try.

So I must respectfully disagree. No, -I- do not suck.

WAR is not an offtank. WAR sucks most as an offtank. Trying to offtank as a WAR is like trying to do Ballet as a Weightlifter. It becomes glaring obvious after a few seconds that we weren't built to off tank. I deal the least damage of all as an off tank even without defiance on. Why? Because I have to hold back so freakin' much. I can't deal damage why? Because my highest damage abilities have ENMITY MODIFIERS.

If as you claim WAR was meant to be an offtank, why can it not deal damage UNLESS it is maintanking??

[CurlyBruce]

this is not the build I take in Caduceus.

It's called more than one gear set. But this is definitely my preferred Set up for everything else. Basically I'll switch out the legs for Darklight legs, and eat some food.

Like magic.

Like magic you gain 43 Acc from pants and at most 22 from food (which you won't even get btw because 3% of 438 is 13 not 22) for a grand total of 458 Acc WHICH STILL ISN'T ENOUGH.

If you can't figure that out, then you need to play it some and you'll figure it out really quickly. As I've learned, WAR is a Superior Single target Tank. It's also a Superior Multi-target tank. I'm still working on my multi-target macros. My single target macros didn't work as well as I have hoped.

You need to do more research. If you can't be bothered to do it, then don't hamper the efforts or criticize the people that do.

So WAR is superior single-target because, what? It does more damage (it doesn't). It's a superior multi-target tank because? It has overpower which is stronger than flash (Flash is sufficient, and you shouldn't be spamming Overpower on WAR anyway). So explain to me again how your gear, which can be equipped by a PLD because they share gear sets, suddenly makes you survive better than a PLD?

[CurlyBruce]

"You Crit more if you stack Crit, duh". It's not "duh". No one understands why WAR gets such a huge boost from Crit. Why? Because no one has researched it. WAR doesn't just get more Crit, it gets 2x more crit from adding Crit rate than other classes. This is even with the buff of Wrath V included. WHY?

We don't ask why because we know it's not true. WAR doesn't get any more benefit from Crit Rate than any other job in the game. You came to this conclusion after stacking crit and running parses in very specific scenarios where Internal Release has a greater up time than normal and you are not getting enough samples for the % to average properly.

[Hachiko]

Hachiko you and other naysayers, however, have never posted anything to assist in WAR research. Why? Because you haven't really done any.

Posting tooltips and correcting people's incorrect understanding of how certain abilities work is useful at times. However, you don't play the job at all. You've never posted any videos. And yet you dare to criticize the fact that I post Garuda and not Coil?

You haven't toyed with builds. You haven't tried different stat allocations. You have not tried.

Therefore you have no place to criticize me for what I've tried, what I've posted and what I've put out there. You can laugh all you want, but while you're laughing you are doing absolutely 0 with WAR.

Thanks to my efforts, I know 10x more about WAR than anyone else on this forum. And I will continue to gain in knowlege about WAR and when WAR is back in favor, which it should be now if people's ignorance weren't hampering the progress, then I will be miles and miles ahead of you.

Did you even think about this post? What would the point of me posting a video of killing Caduceus be? I'm not claiming it's remotely as easy as killing it on a PLD. I'm claiming that WAR can do it but it's precarious at best. Would there be any point in me posting a video where I am routinely taken down to double digits of health and eventually die because healers can't keep up? No.

You're the one making the claim that is outside the norm. I'm telling you why your claim is off base. You can either respond by explaining why you are right, or show a video that shows you are right. You've done neither.

You think you know 10x more than anyone else about WAR but that's just hubris. You've been and switched positions, admitting you were wrong (laudable), many, many times on this forum.

It's pretty easy to show why mathematically Warrior is an inferior tank. You've done nothing to show how it is even on par or superior. All you've done is point out that with more crit rate stat you crit more. Congrats on that.

You think most people in the game follow this forum? This isn't what is hampering your research. The fact is your "solution" is a non-solution. WAR is simply inferior.

[Onisake]

...

no data i have seen suggests war has a higher crit rate than any other class. no data I have personally collected has shown this.

I average about 10% crit rate without defiance. this is base crit rate. this is what I expect. when i keep defiance on i average 20% crit rate. this is what I expect. if i use IR on top of that, once a minute for 5 minutes, i average a 24% crit rate. this is, again, exactly what i expect.

it's not 'no-one knows' and 'no-one will look at it' it's you're the only one asking the question because you're using data tools that are wrong.

The rest of us already collected our own data, and are getting exactly the values we expect. this is because we collected our own data and we didn't rely on random sources found on the internet that haven't been updated in ages and have questionable collection methods.

it boils down to this: you do what works for you. if your group found a viable way to bring war to all content. good for them. don't presume to tell other players that the fault is with them, when it's your team that is doing the bulk of the work to make you viable.

[CurlyBruce]

...

Multi-target tanking is about keeping the hate on all targets. I don't care how much damage you do against all the targets. The only advantage WAR has over Multi-target tanking is Overpower being stronger than Flash, that's why I referenced Overpower. Steel Cyclone is weak. In the time it took you to build up the Wrath V to use it you could have dealt a lot more damage just spamming Overpower. Do I know how much Crit boosted Steel Cyclone is? Yes, 50% the same as every other ability because Critical Hits always grant a 50% damage boost. Steel Cyclone isn't some magical ability that gets more from Crit. A Crit Steel Cyclone with Bloodbath will heal you for 12.5% more than a regular Steel Cyclone. Math is not hard bro, 50% boost to 25% healing is 37.5%. Guess what? You could have healed more spamming Overpower because as stated previously, Overpower is stronger than Steel Cyclone + the abilities you use to get Wrath on multiple targets.

In an earlier thread I did parse against a test dummy and I got the results that coincide with the crit rate testing Valk Dancing-Mad did. I had over 1000 samples by the time I stopped. The only thing I disagreed with the Valk calculator on was how Wrath and Internal Release applied to crit rate, and that's only because of the way the game renders stat boosts in the character screen. For all I know his calculator could be 100% accurate even in regards to the boosts. So mighty funny how with sufficient sample size I got a crit rate that corresponded with tests done by someone else who had a sufficient sample size, yet your amazing sample size of "a couple of bosses in AK" yielded wildly different results. Hey guys I just went and attacked a bee and crit 100% of the time. Then I attacked a rabbit and never crit. Obviously this means my crit rate is 50% because math tells me so.

[Tronic]

Hey guys I just went and attacked a bee and crit 100% of the time. Then I attacked a rabbit and never crit. Obviously this means my crit rate is 50% because math tells me so.

I LOLed in RL at this one.